Pub or Street?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Never say never, but I'm pretty sure Smith would have recognised a newspaper pile and would have commented on such.

As the quote in #123 says, Arbeter Fraint was not folded in the middle.
It was not a many-page, folded newspaper, so the newspaper parcel, as described by PC Smith, did not look like a pile of many-page, folded newspapers.

In the darkness of Berner St, a stack of papers covered in Yiddish print, could have easily been mistaken for a newspaper wrapping - part of the reason for this being that Smith would have been more interested in the physical features of the people he sees on the street, than the exact details of objects they may be carrying.
Smith observed enough of Stride to recognize her immediately at the mortuary, got a fairly good view and description of the man, noticed the size and shape of the object he was carrying, and what it appeared to be, and noted that the couple did not appear to be talking.
That's a pretty good effort, given the lighting condition.

On the other hand, I'm quite open to the idea that what Smith really saw was a newspaper parcel containing grapes, who's dimensions were similar to those of AF, by coincidence.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I've lost this thread somewhat. Are we discussing whether Der Arbiter Freint was picked up in pubs or on the street? Or was it given away free with any purchase of a pound of grapes? Help me out.

[drstrange169]

>> If the parcel is a stack of Arbeter Fraint papers, it must remain unclear as to why someone is holding this parcel on Berner St, after midnight, apparently alongside the soon to be victim. <<

If the parcel is a stack of Arbeter Fraint papers, it must remain unclear as to why PC Smith called it a parcel instead of a stack of newspapers, after all the two would look very different.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Exactly right. A package wrapped in newspaper is not a parcel of newspapers.

What is the theory concerning this supposed parcel of newspapers?, that they were being delivered door to door after midnight?
How ironic that the Arbiter Fraint was an anti establishment paper which riled against the use of labour after-hours!!!!

The devil is in the details.

If the parcel is a stack of Arbeter Fraint papers, it must remain unclear as to why someone is holding this parcel on Berner St, after midnight, apparently alongside the soon to be victim.
As to the papers being delivered throughout the neighborhood, I haven't suggested anything like that.
Regarding the irony of the club supposedly being against the use of after-hours labour, what is ironic is members of a Socialist club, setting themselves up as profiteering Capitalists the following day, by charging members of the public an exorbitant fee, just to peek at the murder spot through the door in one of the gates.

On the other hand, if the parcel is actually newspaper wrapping, then we have to face up to the possibility that the newspaper wrapping contains grapes, that the grapes were purchased at Matthew Packer's shop window, and as a consequence, we have to deal with the following implications:

• Matthew Packer is a partially credible witness, who probably did see Stride with a man who bought grapes from him
• Stride was probably not soliciting at the time, unless she has come across a very unusual customer - but otherwise, we then have to wonder what she is doing in Berner St, next door to a club inhabited by political radicals
• Do the witnesses who see a suspicious character carrying a parcel, at the following 2 murders, actually see a man carrying a packet of grapes, or are these sightings of a parcel just coincidental?
• If the former (grapes), does this suggest the murderer lives somewhere near Packer's shop? Packer himself seems to think so:

The Echo, Oct 17:

An Echo reporter called this afternoon upon Mr. Packer, the Berner-street fruiterer, where the murderer bought the grapes for Elizabeth Stride. It now appears that the man was known by Mr. Packer, who positively asserted, "I had seen him in this district several times before, and if you ask me where he lives I can tell you within a little. He lodges not a great way from the house where Lipski, who was hanged for poisoning a woman, lived." "How many times have you seen him?" was asked Mr. Packer. "About twenty; and I have not seen him since the murder."

Israel Lipski lived in Batty Street.
Interesting that Packer has not so far seen this man in October.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Would you mind providing the exact source where we have the physical size of the Arbeter Fraint?

I will quote Tom Wescott from Ripper Confidential:

Philip Krantz edited the club's weekly newspaper, Der Arbeter Fraint (The Workers Friend), from a small printing press in the back of the club. New editions would be passed out at the club's weekly gatherings. The latest edition was printed earlier that day. Unlike traditional newspapers, Der Arbeter Fraint was not folded in the middle. A stack of such papers, if not properly bound by string or twine, would become rather unruly, so it's reasonable to expect such a stack would be loosely bound in some way. I personally measured a Der Arbeter Fraint edition and found it to be 18" in length and 6" in width.

[Wickerman]

Anyone for grapes?

I'm not a lover of grapes myself, the skins are bitter and if they have seeds I spit them out.
My wife is a lover of grapes, she buys the seedless type but still leaves out the skin (spit them out in a tissue).

So, the fact Drs Blackwell & Phillips found no grape skins or pips in Stride's stomach should not be surprising if Stride didnt like the skins or pips either.
The edible part of the grape - the flesh, would easily have been dissolved by stomach acid, after 38 hours before the autopsy was conducted.
The grape stalk being found in the yard is supporting evidence. I know Tom suggested it was planted, but then he had to come up with some reason. The justification for anyone planting a grape stalk is very weak, a bit of a stretch, and a long stretch at that.

So, I don't think the case against the existence of grapes is all that convincing.

[Wickerman]

Was the parcel 18" by about 7", which would make it the same size as an Arbeter Fraint edition,....

Would you mind providing the exact source where we have the physical size of the Arbeter Fraint?

[Wickerman]

Never say never, but I'm pretty sure Smith would have recognised a newspaper pile and would have commented on such.

Exactly right. A package wrapped in newspaper is not a parcel of newspapers.

What is the theory concerning this supposed parcel of newspapers?, that they were being delivered door to door after midnight?
How ironic that the Arbiter Fraint was an anti establishment paper which riled against the use of labour after-hours!!!!

The devil is in the details.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Anyone for grapes?

[drstrange169]

Never say never, but I'm pretty sure Smith would have recognised a newspaper pile and would have commented on such.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Still thinking about the other bit?

[DJA]

18" long and 6" to 8" broad.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Daily Telegraph (Stride inquest):

Coroner Baxter (in summing up): Smith was very precise, and stated that he was carrying a parcel, done up in a newspaper, about 18in. in length and 6in. to 8in. in width.

Manchester Guardian, Oct 6:

Constable Smith, 452 H, said: On Saturday last I went on duty at 10 p.m. My beat, which included Berner-street, took from twenty-five minutes to half an hour. I was last in Berner- street before the murder at half-past twelve. When I returned in the ordinary course at one o'clock I found a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. Two policemen were on the spot. When I was in Berner-street at 12.30 I saw a man and woman together. The woman was like the deceased, and I have no doubt that the body in the mortuary is that of the person I saw. The two stood a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found. I noticed the man. He had a parcel done up in a newspaper in his hand. It was about eight inches long and six or eight inches wide. As near as I could see, the man was about 5ft. 7in. high, and was wearing a hard felt deerstalker hat of a dark colour. His clothes were dark, and he wore a cutaway coat. I did not overhear any conversation. Both persons appeared to be sober. I did not see the man's face very clearly, but I noticed he had no whiskers. He seemed to be about 28 years of age, and had a respectable appearance. I observed that the woman had a flower in her dress.

I've questioned Wicky a number of times.

He has proven the most knowledgeable poster on this forum.

Indeed,his common sense is most uncommon.

The newspaper parcel would have been a one size fits all and perhaps rather large for 8 ounces of grapes.

Was the parcel 18" by about 7", which would make it the same size as an Arbeter Fraint edition, and therefore probably a bundle of those?
Or was the parcel done up in newspaper, 8" by about 7", and possibly containing grapes from Matthew Packer's shop?
Alternatively, was the parcel 18" by ~7", but as DJA suggests, a one size fits all solution by Packer, that in this case contained grapes?
This seems to be a crucial question.
Three witnesses claim to see grapes in one of Stride's unclenched hands - Diemschutz, Kozebrodsky, and Fanny Mortimer.
Yet the police and doctors on the scene do not report seeing the same thing.
On the other hand, Packer claimed to have sold grapes to a man who was with a woman, about 2 hours before Stride's murder, and the description of the woman's appearance by Packer, is a fairly good match to Liz.
We really need to know the dimensions of the parcel, especially given that a parcel in the hand of a suspicious character, is noted by a witness at at least 2 of the other murders.
So what were the dimensions of the parcel seen by PC Smith, and what did the parcel consist of, or contain?

[MrBarnett]

Ironically, a small start up like Corps Security was what I suspect BS Man might have attempting.

The idea of beating up prostitutes is your interpretation,not mine.

But we have no reason to suspect that the Beadle’s son did anything other than follow in his father’s footsteps. The only reasons he is being considered is because of the Cater/Carter name error, the fact that he spent a few months in BG as a baby - and the possibility that being in the RE turned him from a scrawny boy into a hulky man with a thirst for adventure. How many soldiers or sailors might that have applied to? How many labourers, miners, dockers etc might have developed broad shoulders?

[DJA]

Ironically, a small start up like Corps Security was what I suspect BS Man might have attempting.

The idea of beating up prostitutes is your interpretation,not mine.