Pub or Street?

[Joshua Rogan]

According to the press reports, the Times says;

'a printed handbill with the name "Frank Cater, 405, Bethnal-green-road," upon it'

though these could be transcription errors.

Do any other papers mention this item being found on Kate's body?

[DJA]

Hi Joshua.

It varies ..... 305/405 ..... Cater/Carter.

The version here on Casebook reads Cater/405.

Seems to be a Times find that could have been copied. Checked several other papers,zilch.

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Times [London] - 1 October 1888

Frank Carter - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

The Complete Jack The Ripper A-Z - The Ultimate Guide to The Ripper Mystery - Paul Begg & Martin Fido - Google Books

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - An Interview with Andy Aliffe

[MrBarnett]

According to the press reports, the Times says;

'a printed handbill with the name "Frank Cater, 405, Bethnal-green-road," upon it'

though these could be transcription errors.

Do any other papers mention this item being found on Kate's body?

Several other papers have the same info in the same words, so there may have been a single source.

There was a Frank Cater operating a business from 400, Bethnal Green Road. As far as I can tell, the Cater to Carter change is a modern one. I believe Neil Bell pointed out that the use of Carter in his book was a typo.

When Frank Carter left the RE after ten years service in April, 1888, he gave the Carpenters’ Hall as his intended destination and his occupation as ‘clerk’.

For Dave’s theory to be right, he must have had a change of heart and started up a business in BG Road a few yards away from that of Frank Cater, and the police/press must have mistaken his advertising material for that of Cater.

Oh, and then changed his mind back again and followed his father’s career in an administrative role in the Carpenters’ Co.

[DJA]

Neil RA Bell also had Carter's address as 305,in his book.

[MrBarnett]

Neil RA Bell also had Carter's address as 305,in his book.

But as Neil has pointed out, he was referring to a Frank Cater, Carter was a typo error. 400 BGR was the location of Cater’s business, as evidenced by the 1891 Census and trade directories. 405 looks like a press error and 305 an error made by modern day authors.

None of this brings the beadle’s son into the mix. He left the army in 1888 and went to live with his family at the Carpenters’ Hall in Throgmorton Avenue, where his career as a clerk/beadle continued for at least 23 years.

On what grounds might we suspect he was running and advertising a business in Bethnal Green by September, 1888? Surely the fact that he may have lived there for the first few months of his life is of little significance.

[DJA]

So a man who has spent his adult life as a Royal Engineer just meekly becomes a clerk/trainee beadle without trying something else offering adventure.

If he was BS Man,Stride's demise might have been a factor.

Anyway,we're not getting anywhere here,

[MrBarnett]

So a man who has spent his adult life as a Royal Engineer just meekly becomes a clerk/trainee beadle without trying something else offering adventure.

If he was BS Man,Stride's demise might have been a factor.

Anyway,we're not getting anywhere here,

Have you ever heard of the Corps of Commissionaires?

The tradition of ex-soldiers becoming doormen/receptionists in City offices has a long history. In my day, they still wore bowler hats and their medals. It never occurred to me that any of them might have eased themselves into a sedentary life by roughing up prostitutes in the East End.

I think we have got somewhere. We can be reasonably sure that the handbill had nothing to do with the beadle’s son and we know he took up the career he claimed upon leaving the army.

[DJA]

Ironically, a small start up like Corps Security was what I suspect BS Man might have attempting.

The idea of beating up prostitutes is your interpretation,not mine.

[MrBarnett]

Ironically, a small start up like Corps Security was what I suspect BS Man might have attempting.

The idea of beating up prostitutes is your interpretation,not mine.

But we have no reason to suspect that the Beadle’s son did anything other than follow in his father’s footsteps. The only reasons he is being considered is because of the Cater/Carter name error, the fact that he spent a few months in BG as a baby - and the possibility that being in the RE turned him from a scrawny boy into a hulky man with a thirst for adventure. How many soldiers or sailors might that have applied to? How many labourers, miners, dockers etc might have developed broad shoulders?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Daily Telegraph (Stride inquest):

Coroner Baxter (in summing up): Smith was very precise, and stated that he was carrying a parcel, done up in a newspaper, about 18in. in length and 6in. to 8in. in width.

Manchester Guardian, Oct 6:

Constable Smith, 452 H, said: On Saturday last I went on duty at 10 p.m. My beat, which included Berner-street, took from twenty-five minutes to half an hour. I was last in Berner- street before the murder at half-past twelve. When I returned in the ordinary course at one o'clock I found a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. Two policemen were on the spot. When I was in Berner-street at 12.30 I saw a man and woman together. The woman was like the deceased, and I have no doubt that the body in the mortuary is that of the person I saw. The two stood a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found. I noticed the man. He had a parcel done up in a newspaper in his hand. It was about eight inches long and six or eight inches wide. As near as I could see, the man was about 5ft. 7in. high, and was wearing a hard felt deerstalker hat of a dark colour. His clothes were dark, and he wore a cutaway coat. I did not overhear any conversation. Both persons appeared to be sober. I did not see the man's face very clearly, but I noticed he had no whiskers. He seemed to be about 28 years of age, and had a respectable appearance. I observed that the woman had a flower in her dress.

I've questioned Wicky a number of times.

He has proven the most knowledgeable poster on this forum.

Indeed,his common sense is most uncommon.

The newspaper parcel would have been a one size fits all and perhaps rather large for 8 ounces of grapes.

Was the parcel 18" by about 7", which would make it the same size as an Arbeter Fraint edition, and therefore probably a bundle of those?
Or was the parcel done up in newspaper, 8" by about 7", and possibly containing grapes from Matthew Packer's shop?
Alternatively, was the parcel 18" by ~7", but as DJA suggests, a one size fits all solution by Packer, that in this case contained grapes?
This seems to be a crucial question.
Three witnesses claim to see grapes in one of Stride's unclenched hands - Diemschutz, Kozebrodsky, and Fanny Mortimer.
Yet the police and doctors on the scene do not report seeing the same thing.
On the other hand, Packer claimed to have sold grapes to a man who was with a woman, about 2 hours before Stride's murder, and the description of the woman's appearance by Packer, is a fairly good match to Liz.
We really need to know the dimensions of the parcel, especially given that a parcel in the hand of a suspicious character, is noted by a witness at at least 2 of the other murders.
So what were the dimensions of the parcel seen by PC Smith, and what did the parcel consist of, or contain?

[DJA]

18" long and 6" to 8" broad.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Still thinking about the other bit?

[drstrange169]

Never say never, but I'm pretty sure Smith would have recognised a newspaper pile and would have commented on such.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Anyone for grapes?

[Wickerman]

Never say never, but I'm pretty sure Smith would have recognised a newspaper pile and would have commented on such.

Exactly right. A package wrapped in newspaper is not a parcel of newspapers.

What is the theory concerning this supposed parcel of newspapers?, that they were being delivered door to door after midnight?
How ironic that the Arbiter Fraint was an anti establishment paper which riled against the use of labour after-hours!!!!

The devil is in the details.