Coincidence?

[Sam Flynn]

If the noise of something brushing/falling against the fence heard by Albert Cadosch at around 5.25 wasn't made by Annie or her killer what could it have been made by? You previously suggested packing cases but I pointed out that there weren't any in the yard at the time.

Even if there were, packing cases don't move on their own.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Even if there were, packing cases don't move on their own.

Not in my world they don’t Sam

[Trevor Marriott]

Its undeniable that when details are published about sensational murders there will be more people that are spurred on to act. I don't mean copycats, or mimics, I mean people with their own mental issues and desires, emboldened by and attracted to the "fame" that acting out ones demented fantasies produces. Negative/Positive press...doesn't matter to those guys. They still like the Fame.

I wonder if Jack was at all emboldened by Torso man?

There was no Torso serial killer !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

The first thing to keep in mind here is that there is likely not any reason to believe that the sound had anything to do with the murder of Annie Chapman - the medical implications are against such a thing.

The second thing to keep in mind here is that the time given for the sound is in conflict with the time given by Mrs Long for her sighting of Chapman outside the yard. And both she and Cadosch were dead certain of their respective timings. If we are to accept Cadosch´s statement about the sound as belonging to the Chapman murder (which is unlikely in the extreme from the beginning), then we must rule out Long as being mistaken.

The third thing to keep in mind is that what Cadosh describes does not sound anything like a person falling against a fence and slumping down to the ground. Here is the wording from the Morning Advertiser:

"I went in and came back into the yard in three or four minutes, and then I heard a sort of fall against the fence which divides the yard from No. 29.

What sort of noise was it? - Well, as if something had touched the fence suddenly."

"A sort of fall" is what Cadosch speaks about. Now, what does a fall against a fence sound like? Well, that depends on what is falling against it. A flagpole, an elephant and a human being will make different noises, all of them. But there is a similarity between the two latter suggestions: once an elephant or a person falls against a fence, they will slump down towards the ground. And that produces a sound of it´s own. But no such sound is spoken of by Cadosch, he instead says that it sounded like something "touched the fence suddenly".
But the sound of something that touched a fence suddenly leads my thoughts to a ball kicked against it, somebody accidentally banging his elbow against it, a bird flying into it, soil being thrown against it from a shovel - something like that.

If Cadosch heard nothing more than a sudden touch to the fence, what is it that makes him think that he has heard a fall? Because a fall against a fence encompasses a slumping movement, and if that slumping movement is not there (if the falling person bounces off the fence and falls away from it): where is the thud against the ground?

If Cadosch is describing a falling person, he is not making a very good job of it, is he?

[Sam Flynn]

There was no Torso serial killer !

Even if there wasn't, the torso murders could have inspired others... if only to chop bodies up and throw them in the Thames!

[Fisherman]

Even if there wasn't, the torso murders could have inspired others... if only to chop bodies up and throw them in the Thames!

While I very much agree that a killer may inspire others, I don´t think that Jack was inspired by the Torso killer. I think they were one and the same, of course, but IF there was inspiration at play, then it curiously went both ways:

The Torso killer inspired Jack to take out a heart.
The Torso killer inspired Jack to take out a colon section.
The Torso killer inspired Jack to cut faces severely.
The Torso killer inspired Jack to cut from ribs to pubes.

Then again...

Jack inspired the Torso killer to take out a uterus.
Jack inspired the Torso killer to cut away an abdominal wall in large flaps.
Jack inspired the Torso killer to steal rings from his victims fingers.

Unless, of course, the explanation is less far-fetched. Then again, that would take the fun out of things, perhaps?

[Trevor Marriott]

Even if there wasn't, the torso murders could have inspired others... if only to chop bodies up and throw them in the Thames!

It is academic as to how they died, there was clearly a need to dispose of the bodies chopping them up and throwing them in the thames is but a simple and easy way and hides all evidence to point to how they really died. You cant suggest a murder, when there is no evidence to show a specific cause of death, another big failure of the coroners court inquests into thse torsos.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

[Coroner] It is not usual to hear thumps against the palings? - Albert codosch ''They are packing-case makers, and now and then there is a great case goes up against the palings''.

The first thing to keep in mind here is that there is likely not any reason to believe that the sound had anything to do with the murder of Annie Chapman - the medical implications are against such a thing.

The second thing to keep in mind here is that the time given for the sound is in conflict with the time given by Mrs Long for her sighting of Chapman outside the yard. And both she and Cadosch were dead certain of their respective timings. If we are to accept Cadosch´s statement about the sound as belonging to the Chapman murder (which is unlikely in the extreme from the beginning), then we must rule out Long as being mistaken.

The third thing to keep in mind is that what Cadosh describes does not sound anything like a person falling against a fence and slumping down to the ground. Here is the wording from the Morning Advertiser:

"I went in and came back into the yard in three or four minutes, and then I heard a sort of fall against the fence which divides the yard from No. 29.

What sort of noise was it? - Well, as if something had touched the fence suddenly."

"A sort of fall" is what Cadosch speaks about. Now, what does a fall against a fence sound like? Well, that depends on what is falling against it. A flagpole, an elephant and a human being will make different noises, all of them. But there is a similarity between the two latter suggestions: once an elephant or a person falls against a fence, they will slump down towards the ground. And that produces a sound of it´s own. But no such sound is spoken of by Cadosch, he instead says that it sounded like something "touched the fence suddenly".
But the sound of something that touched a fence suddenly leads my thoughts to a ball kicked against it, somebody accidentally banging his elbow against it, a bird flying into it, soil being thrown against it from a shovel - something like that.

If Cadosch heard nothing more than a sudden touch to the fence, what is it that makes him think that he has heard a fall? Because a fall against a fence encompasses a slumping movement, and if that slumping movement is not there (if the falling person bounces off the fence and falls away from it): where is the thud against the ground?

If Cadosch is describing a falling person, he is not making a very good job of it, is he?

Makes sense in my world .

[Michael W Richards]

It is academic as to how they died, there was clearly a need to dispose of the bodies chopping them up and throwing them in the thames is but a simple and easy way and hides all evidence to point to how they really died. You cant suggest a murder, when there is no evidence to show a specific cause of death, another big failure of the coroners court inquests into thse torsos.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, If Im correct, you are taking the position that its possible that they were perhaps "chopped up" by someone other than the person that killed them? Or that some/they were not murdered at all? If that's right, maybe the most interesting suggestion on the Torso crimes Ive read. What if one or more was found dead, sold some parts, and disposed of what wasn't needed? Interesting speculation.

[FISHY1118]

A

s you can see from Wickerman’s post #170 we have an explanation for the blood on the wall therefore the rest of the suggestion that the killer couldn’t have cut her throat from the position that I suggested collapses. I’m not saying that that’s what definitely happened just that it’s a plausible possibility.

Which means according to wickerman the blood was on the wall behind Annie head was caused by the throwing of the intestines over her shoulder not from the spray from cutting or her throat , therefor the killer didn't lean over her head to cut her throat . So that leaves either the left hand side or the right, try doing it from her left side between her and the fence with your Right hand cutting from left to right, while holding her chin up with your left hand . cant be done ,

Of course the only answer im expecting is the killer was most probably ambidextrous.

[Sam Flynn]

It is academic as to how they died, there was clearly a need to dispose of the bodies chopping them up and throwing them in the thames is but a simple and easy way and hides all evidence to point to how they really died. You cant suggest a murder, when there is no evidence to show a specific cause of death, another big failure of the coroners court inquests into thse torsos.

Whether the torso victims were murdered or not, or whether there was one or more people responsible for them, isn't relevant to the point under discussion. The mere fact that torsos started turning up in the Thames for whatever reason could conceivably have served to inspire someone else to try something similar. Someone mused whether the Ripper murders were inspired by the torso cases, and I'd suggest that they weren't.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The first thing to keep in mind here is that there is likely not any reason to believe that the sound had anything to do with the murder of Annie Chapman - the medical implications are against such a thing.

The medical implications have been thoroughly dealt with. We know for fact, from a plethora of authorities on the subject, that Phillips TOD was unreliable. Constantly repeating the opposite when it suits will not change things. This one is over. Phillips TOD cannot be relied upon.

The second thing to keep in mind here is that the time given for the sound is in conflict with the time given by Mrs Long for her sighting of Chapman outside the yard. And both she and Cadosch were dead certain of their respective timings. If we are to accept Cadosch´s statement about the sound as belonging to the Chapman murder (which is unlikely in the extreme from the beginning), then we must rule out Long as being mistaken.

This is far from certain of course. Long may have been mistaken but equally timings could have been out. 7 or 8 minutes for either witnesses and they tie up.

The third thing to keep in mind is that what Cadosh describes does not sound anything like a person falling against a fence and slumping down to the ground. Here is the wording from the Morning Advertiser:

"I went in and came back into the yard in three or four minutes, and then I heard a sort of fall against the fence which divides the yard from No. 29.

What sort of noise was it? - Well, as if something had touched the fence suddenly."

"A sort of fall" is what Cadosch speaks about. Now, what does a fall against a fence sound like? Well, that depends on what is falling against it. A flagpole, an elephant and a human being will make different noises, all of them. But there is a similarity between the two latter suggestions: once an elephant or a person falls against a fence, they will slump down towards the ground. And that produces a sound of it´s own. But no such sound is spoken of by Cadosch, he instead says that it sounded like something "touched the fence suddenly".
But the sound of something that touched a fence suddenly leads my thoughts to a ball kicked against it, somebody accidentally banging his elbow against it, a bird flying into it, soil being thrown against it from a shovel - something like that.

Perhaps a couple of kids climbed over the fence to retrieve their ball at 5.25 am and didn’t notice the mutilated corpse?

If Cadosch heard nothing more than a sudden touch to the fence, what is it that makes him think that he has heard a fall? Because a fall against a fence encompasses a slumping movement, and if that slumping movement is not there (if the falling person bounces off the fence and falls away from it): where is the thud against the ground?

If Cadosch is describing a falling person, he is not making a very good job of it, is he?

This is a straw man argument because you are implying that the noise could only have been Annie falling against the fence when it could simply have been her killer brushing against the fence. So your third point holds no water.

I’ll repeat the question that I asked in an earlier post. What else could the noise have been? Unless you can prove that Cadosch was lying - and you can’t, then you are saying that he heard something else. Some other noise which came from a yard where, according to Phillips TOD, there was a mutilated corpse. So I assume we can count out an innocent party? What else is left? Perhaps a couple of vultures landed and brushed their wings against the fence? Or perhaps a particularly clumsy hyena? Or....a man mutilating a corpse?

[Herlock Sholmes]

A

Which means according to wickerman the blood was on the wall behind Annie head was caused by the throwing of the intestines over her shoulder not from the spray from cutting or her throat , therefor the killer didn't lean over her head to cut her throat . So that leaves either the left hand side or the right, try doing it from her left side between her and the fence with your Right hand cutting from left to right, while holding her chin up with your left hand . cant be done ,

Of course the only answer im expecting is the killer was most probably ambidextrous.

Or the killer kneeled near to Annie’s right shoulder. None of us were there Fishy so we can’t just place the people involved like chess pieces on a board just to suit a viewpoint. You often use the ‘well it’s not impossible’ argument so we can say that it’s not in any way impossible or unlikely that the killer might have kneeled next to Annie’s right shoulder to cut her throat. And yes of course it’s not impossible that’s the killer might have been ambidextrous. Ambidextrous people exist.

[Harry D]

Has it ever been postulated that the sound brushing against the fence was not Annie in her death throes but the killer? He may have been positioning himself or ducking close to the fence because he heard Cadosch coming in from the yard?

[DJA]

A

Which means according to wickerman the blood was on the wall behind Annie head was caused by the throwing of the intestines over her shoulder not from the spray from cutting or her throat , therefor the killer didn't lean over her head to cut her throat . So that leaves either the left hand side or the right, try doing it from her left side between her and the fence with your Right hand cutting from left to right, while holding her chin up with your left hand . cant be done ,

Of course the only answer im expecting is the killer was most probably ambidextrous.

A lot of surgeons do use both hands.Especially as evidenced in Eddowes case.

Jack was pretty tidy for an eviscerating serial killer.
Just look at Mary Ann Kelly at Dorset Street.
Blood on the wall and soaked through the bedding,yet everything was "placed",not thrown.