Coincidence?

[FISHY1118]

Syncope doesn't mean being strangled; it means loss of consciousness due to the failure of the heart's action. Dr Phillips said that the cause of death was syncope brought about by the blood lost when Annie's throat was cut. As the quote you supplied says: "death arose from syncope... in consequence of the loss of blood caused by the severance of the throat". Any suffocation or strangulation happened before death ("breathing was interfered with before death") and, whilst it rendered A nnie insensible, it didn't kill her.

So Sam can i just ask when, in your opinion was Annie Chapmans throat cut ? while she was in the killers arms being lowered to the ground , shall we say semi conscious ,or while she was on the ground, or something else id really be interested to hear your thoughts .

[Errata]

Syncope is an ongoing periodic loss of consciousness. Fainting. Why is it listed as a cause of death?

[Wickerman]

No real evidence that anyone was strangled
People have pointed to the protruding tongue on Chapman but other things can cause swelling.......

Certain details were reported in the Star of Dec. 24th in reporting on the death of Rose Mylett the article reflects back on the Chapman murder case and the testimony of Dr. Phillips:

"The evidence given by Dr. Phillips on 18 Sept. at the Hanbury-street inquest is incontrovertible proof that Annie Chapman was partially strangled before her throat was cut. When Dr. Phillips was called to see the body he found that the tongue protruded between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips. The face was swollen, the finger-nails and lips were turgid, and in the brain, on the head being opened, he found the membranes opaque and the veins and tissues loaded with black blood. All these appearances are the ordinary signs of suffocation. In Dr. Phillip's own words, "I am of opinion that the breathing was interfered with previous to death, but that death arose from syncope consequent on the loss of blood following the severance of the throat."
https://www.casebook.org/press_repor...r/s881224.html

"All these appearances", not just the tongue protruding between the teeth.
P.S. I think the "18th Sept" date is an error.

[Wickerman]

Syncope is an ongoing periodic loss of consciousness. Fainting. Why is it listed as a cause of death?

Because 'syncope' is a loss of blood pressure to the brain, loss of consciousness is only a symptom not a cause.
Given the throat was cut and the amount of blood loss around the neck it was his foregone conclusion that the loss of blood pressure was due to the loss of blood at the neck.

[Wickerman]

There was blood spray on the wall behind Chapman's head.

There were blood spots on the wall at a low point, but her intestines had been thrown over the shoulder (in the direction of that wall) so the cause for those spots of blood is evident.

[Wickerman]

While certainly not impossible, I find it hard to believe that any prostitute at the time would be willing to go into an abandoned house with a client she just met when she knew Jack was out and about. Also empty houses were probably nasty and filled with trash and rats. What reason could a client give for wanting to go into one?

c.d.

:-) I find it hard to believe that you find it hard to believe, it's purely par for the course in the life of a prostitute.
The ordinary public are reluctant to go out at night but not the desperate prostitute, as evidenced a century later with the Yorkshire Ripper.

[c.d.]

:-) I find it hard to believe that you find it hard to believe, it's purely par for the course in the life of a prostitute.
The ordinary public are reluctant to go out at night but not the desperate prostitute, as evidenced a century later with the Yorkshire Ripper.

I understand that they needed money and not going out at night was simply not an option. Going out on the streets is one thing. Going into an abandoned house is another. Would they have done it anyway? Probably, but I think it would have been done with a great deal of reluctance.

c.d.

[DJA]

There were blood spots on the wall at a low point, but her intestines had been thrown over the shoulder (in the direction of that wall) so the cause for those spots of blood is evident.

Part of the stomach above the left shoulder may have also contributed,however arterial spray is also most likely.

[DJA]

While certainly not impossible, I find it hard to believe that any prostitute at the time would be willing to go into an abandoned house with a client she just met when she knew Jack was out and about. Also empty houses were probably nasty and filled with trash and rats. What reason could a client give for wanting to go into one?

c.d.

6 & 7 Mitre Street were not abandoned houses.
Both were classified as dwelling and/or restaurant in 1887 and continued as such for decades.

[Blotchy's Beer Bucket]

Hello B.B.B.,

Welcome to the boards.

I would say the corner of a dingy square where you would at least have some opportunity to run or yell for help plus you don't have to look over your shoulder for rats.

c.d.

Cheers C.d!
I'd dare say being a penniless Prostitute,you'd not have the choice to be picky,Ripper Scare or not.
But I don't believe Eddowes was there to prostitute herself ;-)

[etenguy]

Cheers C.d!
I'd dare say being a penniless Prostitute,you'd not have the choice to be picky,Ripper Scare or not.
But I don't believe Eddowes was there to prostitute herself ;-)

Hi Blotchy's Beer Bucket

According to the list of possessions for Eddowes, she had no money on her. Isn't it likely she went out to earn her doss money? What is your suggestion for her spending about half an hour hanging about the streets at that time of night?

[Trevor Marriott]

Because 'syncope' is a loss of blood pressure to the brain, loss of consciousness is only a symptom not a cause.
Given the throat was cut and the amount of blood loss around the neck it was his foregone conclusion that the loss of blood pressure was due to the loss of blood at the neck.

On the topic on syncope this term was used by doctors in the Pinchin St Inquet testimony

Dr Biggs states
"I am also perplexed by their cause of death! ‘Syncope’ is just a word denoting fainting or collapse. In the olden days, words such as ‘exhaustion’, ‘shock’ or ‘syncope’ were used as a ‘cause of death’ and were not questioned. We couldn’t get away with that now! It sounds like they don’t actually know the cause of death, but they are reluctant to admit it. These days it is much safer to say that the cause of death is unascertained unless you are sure of something you can back up!"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

There were blood spots on the wall at a low point, but her intestines had been thrown over the shoulder (in the direction of that wall) so the cause for those spots of blood is evident.

Excellent point Wick.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I've seen arterial spray first hand. My own. You wouldn't have described it as' spots of blood'. It was ruddy great arcs up the wall!

[Herlock Sholmes]

So again if the killer was between Chapman head and the wall when he cut her throat , how did the blood get there.?

Better still why start from behind her head kneeling to cut her throat only to move to the left or right side to start the mutilation process side .?

The evidence\ suggest that she was rendered unconscious , lowered to the ground and had her throat cut from that position while the killer was on the right side of her body , thus continuing the mutilation also from that position without the need to move around the body doing cartwheels kicking fences as some would have us believe .

As you can see from Wickerman’s post #170 we have an explanation for the blood on the wall therefore the rest of the suggestion that the killer couldn’t have cut her throat from the position that I suggested collapses. I’m not saying that that’s what definitely happened just that it’s a plausible possibility.

I don’t see why you have to talk about cartwheeling and kicking fences? There’s nothing unbelievable or far-fetched about the suggestion that the killer might have changed positions during the mutilations to get better access. The gap between Annie’s body and the fence was relatively narrow so it’s entirely plausible that the killer might have brushed his shoulder against the fence.

Ill ask a question Fishy (anyone else can give an answer too of course) It’s a question that I’ve asked before but I’ve never gotten a specific answer from you.

If the noise of something brushing/falling against the fence heard by Albert Cadosch at around 5.25 wasn’t made by Annie or her killer what could it have been made by? You previously suggested packing cases but I pointed out that there weren’t any in the yard at the time.