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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    If that were his intention, then why did he end on such a crescendo with Mary Kelly's (indoor) murder? Surely that would have drawn more attention to her than necessary. Why not bump her off somewhat less spectacularly in the middle of a series of "decoy" murders?

    Why, for that matter, choose such an elaborate and risky method as open-air evisceration, when he could simply have strangled or stabbed his victims or bashed them over the head, whether they were decoys or not?
    Exactly Sam. Why remove organs if this was simply a case of elimination? Why was the method so specific?

    How many series of murders of women/prostitutes throughout the history of crime have turned out to have been a part of some blackmail/conspiracy plot?
    Regards

    Herlock






    "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
      If Kelly and Eddowes had both used the name Winnifred Featherstonhaugh then I’d see a reason for suspicion but Jane Kelly? Come on. This is conspiracy theorist thinking. This is nothing to do with ‘thinking outside the box’ it’s about staying within the realms of plausibility. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and bog standard names like JANE and KELLY don’t even come close. We know that prostitutes gave used other names. This is a massive...so what.
      As I just posted Herlock, its the timing that these aliases were used and the given name/street address that combined that offer something a little too coincidental... for my tastes anyway. Added to Kates behavior that last day, uncharacteristic when matched with witnesses like Kelly himself, its certainly odd.

      Kate tattooed the initials of someone she was emotionally married to, in Kellys case, he says himself they were "partners", and lived as man and wife.
      Michael Richards

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      • #18
        As Harry has pointed out Eddowes common law husband was John Kelly. She also had a daughter called Annie. Mary’s a common name. Where’s the mystery? To prove conspiracy this isn’t even a worthy starting point.
        Regards

        Herlock






        "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

        Comment


        • #19
          [QUOTE=Michael W Richards;n724418]

          Added to Kates behavior that last day, uncharacteristic when matched with witnesses like Kelly himself, its certainly odd.



          She was drunk and impersonating a fire engine. Then got banged up for said drunkenness. Seems pretty normal for a drinking lady like Kate was.

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          • #20
            She was not impersonating a fire engine.

            That was a much later embellishment.
            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
              As Harry has pointed out Eddowes common law husband was John Kelly. She also had a daughter called Annie. Mary’s a common name. Where’s the mystery? To prove conspiracy this isn’t even a worthy starting point.
              Again...…..Kate used 2 aliases in her last 24 hours, when combined, contain the name and almost complete address of the very next victim assumed to be by Jack the Ripper, assumed by many to be the same person that actually kills Kate, in the most highly publicized series of murders at the time.

              Even an assumption of Kates clairvoyance would be preferable to summary dismissal of this very odd coincidence Herlock.
              Michael Richards

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              • #22
                An easy one to read a conspiracy into but I suspect it is no more than a coincidence. Kelly is a pretty common name. Probably why Mary Jane Kelly used it, if as is likely, as an alias. Probably a bit of a 'go to' name for anonymity, like we use John Smith nowadays.

                Tristan

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                  Again...…..Kate used 2 aliases in her last 24 hours, when combined, contain the name and almost complete address of the very next victim assumed to be by Jack the Ripper, assumed by many to be the same person that actually kills Kate, in the most highly publicized series of murders at the time.

                  Even an assumption of Kates clairvoyance would be preferable to summary dismissal of this very odd coincidence Herlock.
                  I don’t see it as clairvoyance Michael. Coincidences do occur and some of them a truly remarkable when we read about them but they are coincidences none the same. Even if Eddowes knew Mary Kelly (and we can't dismiss this possibility) then this still doesn’t imply any kind of conspiracy just that she might have given the name of an associate because it came to her mind easily. The fact that she was with John Kelly also has to be at least suggestive of a reason why she chose that surname.
                  Regards

                  Herlock






                  "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    She was never known by the name Kelly as far as we know, despite living with John Kelly until her return from Kent .
                    Kate Conway 'bought and paid for' as she told Wilkinson and that is all we have in terms of evidence.

                    Kate's eldest son was Thomas Conway .
                    The same age as the Thomas Conway who was a procurer for the Cleveland Street brothel.
                    Kate's son was living less than a mile away in York Street ,Marylebone at the time with his father and brother and is one of only two Thomas Conway's to be close enough in age ,the other was 4 years older .

                    Coincidence ?
                    Maybe ,but if it's not it's a game changer

                    You can't have two completely independent links between Cleveland Street and JTR and not remove the blinkers
                    You can lead a horse to water.....

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                      The fact that she was with John Kelly also has to be at least suggestive of a reason why she chose that surname.
                      It's almost certainly the reason. Why would anyone knowingly use a real person's name as an alias anyway? That said, it was only part of a real person's name, with a wrong middle name and one of two false addresses. She also gave different false details to the pawnbroker and the police within a short space of time, which is entirely congruent with the idea that she was making up aliases off the top of her head. This is reinforced by the fact that she used common names and chose entirely obvious streets where a woman of her status might feasibly live.

                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by packers stem View Post
                        She was never known by the name Kelly as far as we know, despite living with John Kelly until her return from Kent .
                        Kate Conway 'bought and paid for' as she told Wilkinson and that is all we have in terms of evidence.

                        Kate's eldest son was Thomas Conway .
                        The same age as the Thomas Conway who was a procurer for the Cleveland Street brothel.
                        Kate's son was living less than a mile away in York Street ,Marylebone at the time with his father and brother and is one of only two Thomas Conway's to be close enough in age ,the other was 4 years older .

                        Coincidence ?
                        Maybe ,but if it's not it's a game changer

                        You can't have two completely independent links between Cleveland Street and JTR and not remove the blinkers
                        There is no link whatsoever. Prove that the two Thomas Conways were one and the same and then you can proceed with some kind of theory. Until then you have two people with the same name and nothing more. If you keep looking for conspiracies you will find them.
                        Regards

                        Herlock






                        "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          There is no link whatsoever. Prove that the two Thomas Conways were one and the same and then you can proceed with some kind of theory. Until then you have two people with the same name and nothing more. If you keep looking for conspiracies you will find them.
                          And there's the head in sand response I expected......
                          it is the game that is ripperology

                          There are only two likely Thomas Conway's ..... it is 50/50 and with Eddowes son closest in age he's ahead by a nose ...
                          Last edited by packers stem; 10-09-2019, 06:12 PM.
                          You can lead a horse to water.....

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by packers stem View Post

                            And there's the head in sand response I expected......
                            it is the game that is ripperology

                            There are only two likely Thomas Conway's ..... it is 50/50 and with Eddowes son closest in age he's ahead by a nose ...
                            And there could have been no other Thomas Conway?
                            Regards

                            Herlock






                            "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                              And there could have been no other Thomas Conway?
                              Two of a roughly similar age in that part of London.
                              Seem to remember there was one in Wimbledon whose whereabouts didn't alter over future years .
                              The Cleveland Street Thomas was said to have gone off to the East end after the affair and worked as a drag artist.
                              Thomas was not living with his father in the 91 census, although he was again by 1901 if memory serves .
                              I'm not saying it is him, but this isn't a 1% chance..... it's a very real prospect
                              You can lead a horse to water.....

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by packers stem View Post
                                In life ,you get very very occasional coincidences.....
                                Ripperology is jam packed with them .
                                Where there are too many percieved coincidences it's advisable to lift yourself outside of the box and consider what else may be going on .
                                Unfortunately, very few in this field are willing to do that
                                Then I trust I can take it that you are convinced that Charles Lechmere was the Ripper and that he was also the Torso killer? Unless, that is, you write the many things pointing in these directions down as coincidences?

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