Coincidence?

[packers stem]

Then I trust I can take it that you are convinced that Charles Lechmere was the Ripper and that he was also the Torso killer? Unless, that is, you write the many things pointing in these directions down as coincidences?

Afraid not
To me ,he was just somebody who found a body

[Herlock Sholmes]

Two of a roughly similar age in that part of London.
Seem to remember there was one in Wimbledon whose whereabouts didn't alter over future years .
The Cleveland Street Thomas was said to have gone off to the East end after the affair and worked as a drag artist.
Thomas was not living with his father in the 91 census, although he was again by 1901 if memory serves .
I'm not saying it is him, but this isn't a 1% chance..... it's a very real prospect

Even if the two Conways were one and the same where are we going with this? I see nothing of relevance. What has Cleveland Street to do with the ripper murders except for the thoroughly discredited fantasy that is the Knight story? What are you implying?

Cue Fishy......

[etenguy]

If that were his intention, then why did he end on such a crescendo with Mary Kelly's (indoor) murder? Surely that would have drawn more attention to her than necessary. Why not bump her off somewhat less spectacularly in the middle of a series of "decoy" murders?

Why, for that matter, choose such an elaborate and risky method as open-air evisceration, when he could simply have strangled or stabbed his victims or bashed them over the head, whether they were decoys or not?

All true - the biggest part of me shrugs it off as coincidence, but this is the second significant coincidence I shrugged off in the last couple of weeks (the other being the timing between the C5 murders). I do not subscribe to the royal conspiracy theory, but that does not mean there are not parts of it that might be useful. I guess I'll wait for a couple more before deciding there are too many and something else is going on.

[packers stem]

Even if the two Conways were one and the same where are we going with this? I see nothing of relevance. What has Cleveland Street to do with the ripper murders except for the thoroughly discredited fantasy that is the Knight story? What are you implying?

Cue Fishy......

If you can't see it you can't see it .... or maybe wouldn't want to see it .
Irrespective of whether a theory has been discredited previously if something entirely unconnected shows a link then it must be revisited .
As would Tumblety links there .....
Who knows ,Monty may have partied there .
A closed mind will miss everything.

I must add here that Cleveland Street flies in the face of what I believe occurred and I would have to rethink everything, but that I would if Kate's Thomas was indeed the procurer for no.19
All avenues around Cleveland Street would be open ,whether royal or American quack
whether we like it or not

[Herlock Sholmes]

If you can't see it you can't see it .... or maybe wouldn't want to see it .
Irrespective of whether a theory has been discredited previously if something entirely unconnected shows a link then it must be revisited .
As would Tumblety links there .....
Who knows ,Monty may have partied there .
A closed mind will miss everything.

I must add here that Cleveland Street flies in the face of what I believe occurred and I would have to rethink everything, but that I would if Kate's Thomas was indeed the procurer for no.19
All avenues around Cleveland Street would be open ,whether royal or American quack
whether we like it or not

It’s not a case of having a closed mind Packers. It’s a case of having a cautious one. Coincidences occur all of the time. You can find imagined links all over the place. You simply have to look. Even if Thomas was a procurer it means only that, because you have to start imagining further links to connect them to the case. It’s all ‘what if’s’ with nothing to back it up.

You said “if you can’t see it...” What exactly is “it?” It’s all hints and winks and nothing approaching real evidence. There’s just nothing there that points to a conspiracy. They were women who were killed randomly by a serial killer unless we have serious evidence to the contrary. Which we don’t.

[jerryd]

She was never known by the name Kelly as far as we know, despite living with John Kelly until her return from Kent .
Kate Conway 'bought and paid for' as she told Wilkinson and that is all we have in terms of evidence.

Kate's eldest son was Thomas Conway .
The same age as the Thomas Conway who was a procurer for the Cleveland Street brothel.
Kate's son was living less than a mile away in York Street ,Marylebone at the time with his father and brother and is one of only two Thomas Conway's to be close enough in age ,the other was 4 years older .

Coincidence ?
Maybe ,but if it's not it's a game changer

You can't have two completely independent links between Cleveland Street and JTR and not remove the blinkers

Just a minor correction, Nick. It was York Street, Walworth that they were living. Not Marylebone. And yet another coincidence occurs as Thomas Drew (Polly Nichols ex) was also living in York Street, Walworth in 1888. This address is in the Elephant and Castle area and not far from the Newington workhouse where Debs found several ladies in this saga at one time residing.

[jerryd]

It’s not a case of having a closed mind Packers. It’s a case of having a cautious one. Coincidences occur all of the time. You can find imagined links all over the place. You simply have to look. Even if Thomas was a procurer it means only that, because you have to start imagining further links to connect them to the case. It’s all ‘what if’s’ with nothing to back it up.

You said “if you can’t see it...” What exactly is “it?” It’s all hints and winks and nothing approaching real evidence. There’s just nothing there that points to a conspiracy. They were women who were killed randomly by a serial killer unless we have serious evidence to the contrary. Which we don’t.

Hi Herlock,

You are correct. There is a lot we have yet to discover regarding evidence in this case, which makes it difficult to form any substance that is conclusive. I will say, however, there is a lot to look at in the form of links to the Cleveland Street Scandal and the Whitechapel Murders. And yes, some of it involves "what ifs" and possibilities. But, it is far from nothing approaching real evidence. I know you dislike the term "conspiracy". The Cleveland Street scandal was one, big conspiracy. That is a fact. There were many high ups covering up for the men involved in the scandal.

One question I asked myself long ago regarding Mary Jane Kelly was, why did the high ranking official from the Post Office attend the crime scene? This peaked my interest in the Cleveland Street Scandal and The Dublin Castle Scandal of 1884. Both these cases involved post office officials and telegraph boys. Matter of fact, one young man was involved in both. He escaped testimony from one only to be heavily embroiled in the other. His name, Jack Saul. He was Charles Hammonds one time lover and right hand man. Saul was interviewed several times by inspector Abberline regarding the scandal. He was a key witness in the trial of Ernest Parke.

Speaking of scandals and conspiracies, it was Abberline himself that either became the scapegoat or purposely dragged his feet in issuing a warrant for the arrest of Charles Hammond. The result, Hammond escaped to America with a register book full of the names of the important men that regularly visited his house. Many attempts were made to procure this list of names while Hammond was in America. For obvious reasons. One man, a detective from London, made up a false claim that landed Hammond in a Seattle prison. He was later pardoned. Another man, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune (Micajah Fible) was successful in purchasing many of the documents in Hammonds possession. When Fible was dropped off to leave back to Chicago, he was never seen alive again. His body was found washed ashore. Hammond ended up with the documents and was the last person to be recorded seeing Fible alive.

So, in short, there were a lot of people turning a blind eye to the scandal. Jack Saul stated in his testimony in the Parke trial that the police were kind to him but turned their heads to more than just him. Why is it so hard to believe in cover ups in 1888 Whitechapel? The house on Cleveland Street was in operation well before the Whitechapel murders. For all intents and purposes, the scandal ended with Veck and Newlove being committed for trial on the 11th of September, 1889. The day after the discovery of the Pinchin Street torso. From there, the murders seem to end in both camps. Ripper and torso.

[FISHY1118]

Even if the two Conways were one and the same where are we going with this? I see nothing of relevance. What has Cleveland Street to do with the ripper murders except for the thoroughly discredited fantasy that is the Knight story? What are you implying?

Cue Fishy......

What people call a thoroughly discredited story , is in fact a thoroughly researched theory which stands up today , just as it did when it was written in 1976 .

[jerryd]

Btw Herlock. The post above in no way does justice to all the information that links the Cleveland Street Scandal players with the Whitechapel murders. I would grossly derail this thread, which I will not do. I just wanted to point out, there is a lot of research out there that can be found that one can draw their own conclusions about the two cases. Abberline was involved in both cases. He had a good idea about who the killer was, I have a feeling.

[DJA]

Abberline was involved in both cases. He had a good idea about who the killer was, I have a feeling.

I have no doubt about that.

Look at how quickly he was on the scene at Nichols' inquest.

Ditto Matthews' involvement in both cases.Incidentally he never married and Tom Wescott considers him a homosexual.

Both enormous cover ups.

Police were instructed to leave important homosexuals and paedophiles to their own devices.
Read what Labouchere had to say about that.

Research sailorman Hutchinson and you will find an unexplained boy living with him who's real parents lived in Primrose Street, just up the road from Phillips going towards Finsbury Square.

Read RL Stevenson's novella and ask yourself what Mr Hyde's sins were.
What did his trampling of the young girl really entail?
Who was she?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Some really interesting points being made. Certainly gives us something to think about. And why was a post office official at Millers Court? I always found that curious....

[etenguy]

Hi Herlock,

You are correct. There is a lot we have yet to discover regarding evidence in this case, which makes it difficult to form any substance that is conclusive. I will say, however, there is a lot to look at in the form of links to the Cleveland Street Scandal and the Whitechapel Murders. And yes, some of it involves "what ifs" and possibilities. But, it is far from nothing approaching real evidence. I know you dislike the term "conspiracy". The Cleveland Street scandal was one, big conspiracy. That is a fact. There were many high ups covering up for the men involved in the scandal.

One question I asked myself long ago regarding Mary Jane Kelly was, why did the high ranking official from the Post Office attend the crime scene? This peaked my interest in the Cleveland Street Scandal and The Dublin Castle Scandal of 1884. Both these cases involved post office officials and telegraph boys. Matter of fact, one young man was involved in both. He escaped testimony from one only to be heavily embroiled in the other. His name, Jack Saul. He was Charles Hammonds one time lover and right hand man. Saul was interviewed several times by inspector Abberline regarding the scandal. He was a key witness in the trial of Ernest Parke.

Speaking of scandals and conspiracies, it was Abberline himself that either became the scapegoat or purposely dragged his feet in issuing a warrant for the arrest of Charles Hammond. The result, Hammond escaped to America with a register book full of the names of the important men that regularly visited his house. Many attempts were made to procure this list of names while Hammond was in America. For obvious reasons. One man, a detective from London, made up a false claim that landed Hammond in a Seattle prison. He was later pardoned. Another man, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune (Micajah Fible) was successful in purchasing many of the documents in Hammonds possession. When Fible was dropped off to leave back to Chicago, he was never seen alive again. His body was found washed ashore. Hammond ended up with the documents and was the last person to be recorded seeing Fible alive.

So, in short, there were a lot of people turning a blind eye to the scandal. Jack Saul stated in his testimony in the Parke trial that the police were kind to him but turned their heads to more than just him. Why is it so hard to believe in cover ups in 1888 Whitechapel? The house on Cleveland Street was in operation well before the Whitechapel murders. For all intents and purposes, the scandal ended with Veck and Newlove being committed for trial on the 11th of September, 1889. The day after the discovery of the Pinchin Street torso. From there, the murders seem to end in both camps. Ripper and torso.

An excellent and informative post jerryd and I think we might better use the term cover up rather than conspiracy, since conspiracy has such negative connotations attached to it. I know little of the Cleveland Street scandal, so shall be reading about that over the next few days (any pointers to good sources appreciated) and I know nothing of the Dublin Castle Scandal and will do the same there.

I am content to believe that the ripper murders were stand alone and was the result of a disturbed person. I am also open to the idea of a cover up, but if the latter I would have to ask myself, as someone did earlier in the thread, why such sensational murders? I have only one answer to that question - the sensationalism was to draw attention away from something else. I don't have any theories, but that seems to me the only reason that someone might deliberately want the murders sensationalised.

[Fisherman]

Afraid not
To me ,he was just somebody who found a body

But what about the many coincidences involved in his case? And the equally many coincidences involved in the comparison between the Ripper series and the Torso ditto? You disappoint me; I thought you lamented how many posters are not willing to acknowledge strings of coincidences as potentially something not coincidental at all - and here you are, buying coincidences by the dozens, no questions asked.

[Harry D]

Wasn't the case at all.

Someone's spelling mistake still echos thru' the years.

What was her name, then?

[packers stem]

Just a minor correction, Nick. It was York Street, Walworth that they were living. Not Marylebone. And yet another coincidence occurs as Thomas Drew (Polly Nichols ex) was also living in York Street, Walworth in 1888. This address is in the Elephant and Castle area and not far from the Newington workhouse where Debs found several ladies in this saga at one time residing.

Cheers Jerry
I was going by the evening news of the 16th which lists the address as Westminster .
Googling York Street ,Westminsteŕ brings up the one I was talking about.


The man Conway, who yesterday visited the Old Jewry Police Station with his two sons, is living at 43, York-street, Westminster, and follows the occupation of a hawker. The police describe him as evidently a man of very exemplary character, and he alluded to his wife's misconduct before their separation with evident pain. Since then he stated that he had frequently seen her in the company of the man Kelly. The police have nothing of importance to communicate with reference to this incident.