Coincidence?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ummm, isn't that just circular? If I speculate something for which there is no evidence, and argue that when you accept what I say as true that means I'm not speculating anymore, and if I'm not speculating that means it is true, so if you accept what I say as being true it somehow actually becomes true despite there being no other evidence of its truth other than it being accepted as true? Hmmmm, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

- Jeff

You beat me to it Jeff.

[JeffHamm]

Not speculating if you accept that Mary Kelly was not Mary Kelly but someone hiding under that alias who was a target for the Fenians, and her death made to look like the work of the killer who had killed one or more of the others seems quite plausible to me, and thats why no one has been able to trace the murdered Mary Kelly.

For a more detailed explanation you should read the chapter on Mary Kelly in my book "Jack the Ripper-The real Truth"

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper-Truth-Trevor-Marriott/dp/1728912997/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3TGMXBF17MT28&keywords=trevor+marriott&qid=1572040992&s=books&sprefix=Trevor+Marriott%2Caps%2C396&sr=1-1

Ummm, isn't that just circular? If I speculate something for which there is no evidence, and argue that when you accept what I say as true that means I'm not speculating anymore, and if I'm not speculating that means it is true, so if you accept what I say as being true it somehow actually becomes true despite there being no other evidence of its truth other than it being accepted as true? Hmmmm, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

- Jeff

[c.d.]

JTR: Hello, down-and-out forty-something woman. I'm Jack.
Woman #1: Hello. I'm Mary.
JTR: Die, stumpet!

Three hours and another dead Mary later...

JTR: Hello, down-and-out forty-something woman. I'm Jack.
Woman #3: Hello. I'm Emily.
JTR: What a pretty name! Well, I bid you a good night.

Yeah, this pretty much sums it up for me. But Sam, you forgot to include his next question -- "say, by any chance have you ever gone by the name of Mary?"

Posts seem to be going off the deep end of late. People are using speculation as the basis for even more outlandish speculation.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Not speculating if you accept that Mary Kelly was not Mary Kelly but someone hiding under that alias who was a target for the Fenians, and her death made to look like the work of the killer who had killed one or more of the others seems quite plausible to me, and thats why no one has been able to trace the murdered Mary Kelly.

For a more detailed explanation you should read the chapter on Mary Kelly in my book "Jack the Ripper-The real Truth"

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper-Truth-Trevor-Marriott/dp/1728912997/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3TGMXBF17MT28&keywords=trevor+marriott&qid=1572040992&s=books&sprefix=Trevor+Marriott%2Caps%2C396&sr=1-1

Well that begs the question why should we accept it without any evidence to support it?

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

It beats me how you can keep criticising others for “wildly speculating” about the validity of witness statements combined with your blanket dismissal as unreliable of just about everyone involved in the case and yet you can propose this unsupported nonsense as fact! How can you possibly state a ‘definite’ Irish connection with Kelly’s murder? Even the odds alone suggest that Kelly was killed by the same man that killed the other victims. The fact that she was killed indoors is easily and plausibly explained. Some kind of conspiracy or plot can always be found if you try hard enough.

Not speculating if you accept that Mary Kelly was not Mary Kelly but someone hiding under that alias who was a target for the Fenians, and her death made to look like the work of the killer who had killed one or more of the others seems quite plausible to me, and thats why no one has been able to trace the murdered Mary Kelly.

For a more detailed explanation you should read the chapter on Mary Kelly in my book "Jack the Ripper-The real Truth"

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper-Truth-Trevor-Marriott/dp/1728912997/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3TGMXBF17MT28&keywords=trevor+marriott&qid=1572040992&s=books&sprefix=Trevor+Marriott%2Caps%2C396&sr=1-1

[JeffHamm]

That connection to Mary Jane Kelly of Dorset Street can be bolstered by Kates choices of given names, street name and partial numerical address. As Sam keeps reiterating Kelly has been with Kate for some time, so it would seem ok to just assume she adopted his surname on occasion. The thing is its not only the surname that links the 2, its also the choices for given names. He even said I knew her as Kate Conway, not..she is my lady, we are as man and wife...he did say "lived as", which could be just a reference to cohabitation. The given names, in context, are too coincidentally linked to the very next victim in this presumed series to dismiss with assumptive about how Kate may have misidentified herself based on a relationship with John Kelly.

But there's just as much of a match between Eddowes's alias "Mary Ann Kelly" with "Mary Ann Cox" of 5 Millers Court as there is with Mary Jane Kelly, and given the Kelly portion of the alias has a far more mundane explanation, we've got evidence of how easy it is for such a coincidence to arise. Had Mary Ann Cox been JtRs victim rather than Mary Jane Kelly, I suspect the same debate would be happening, only now surnames wouldn't matter.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

But, doesn't that just connect the two aliases? It leaves out MJK from that calculation. So, given that Kelly is the only common connection between the aliases, then isn't the only important "match" with MJK the surname, so you're matching on Kelly. Or, are you saying, other names now also become important, except when they aren't?

That connection to Mary Jane Kelly of Dorset Street can be bolstered by Kates choices of given names, street name and partial numerical address. As Sam keeps reiterating Kelly has been with Kate for some time, so it would seem ok to just assume she adopted his surname on occasion. The thing is its not only the surname that links the 2, its also the choices for given names. He even said I knew her as Kate Conway, not..she is my lady, we are as man and wife...he did say "lived as", which could be just a reference to cohabitation. The given names, in context, are too coincidentally linked to the very next victim in this presumed series to dismiss with assumptive about how Kate may have misidentified herself based on a relationship with John Kelly.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Mary Kelly was a stand alone victim, who was the real target, and she was using the alias of Kelly, and her killer knew the victim he sought was using the alias of Kelly and was working as a prostitute. Killed by process of elimination? A definite Irish connection to the killing !!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

It beats me how you can keep criticising others for “wildly speculating” about the validity of witness statements combined with your blanket dismissal as unreliable of just about everyone involved in the case and yet you can propose this unsupported nonsense as fact! How can you possibly state a ‘definite’ Irish connection with Kelly’s murder? Even the odds alone suggest that Kelly was killed by the same man that killed the other victims. The fact that she was killed indoors is easily and plausibly explained. Some kind of conspiracy or plot can always be found if you try hard enough.

[Sam Flynn]

The surname of Kate's partner of the best part of a decade, and hardly a rare surname in its own right.

[JeffHamm]

The only repetitive element in both aliases is the surname Jeff.

But, doesn't that just connect the two aliases? It leaves out MJK from that calculation. So, given that Kelly is the only common connection between the aliases, then isn't the only important "match" with MJK the surname, so you're matching on Kelly. Or, are you saying, other names now also become important, except when they aren't?

[Michael W Richards]

Why are surnames suddenly important? It's all been about splicing in Jane and dropping Ann to produce "Mary Jane Kelly"? And the Kelly connection between Eddowes and Mary Jane would have existed regardless given Eddowes' relationship (so had her alias been Sarah Lee Kelly, that would still provide that surname link despite the obvioius reason why she might choose Kelly in the first place - the overlap with the more flexible options are the more informative ones.

But most importnatly, one doesn't even have to leave Millers Court to find a second 2 / 3 name overlap with one of Eddowes' alias, which indicates how easy it is for that to be coincidental.

- Jeff

The only repetitive element in both aliases is the surname Jeff.

[Sam Flynn]

Mary Kelly was a stand alone victim, who was the real target, and she was using the alias of Kelly, and her killer knew the victim he sought was using the alias of Kelly and was working as a prostitute. Killed by process of elimination? A definite Irish connection to the killing !!!!!!!

What does this have to do with the subject of this thread?

[Michael W Richards]

Sorry, I'm not following you, and it could just be me. But it sounds like you are arguing for Mary Jane Kelly to have been murdered by someone she knew, who was different from the person who murdered Catherine Eddowes.

But, if that's the case, doesn't that mean that it has to be a coincidence that Eddowes used the alias Mary Ann Kelly, and Jane Kelly, and that Mary Jane Kelly was the "next victim"? If the murderers are different people, then it is, by definition, a coincidence isn't it?

And yet, it seems you're simultaneously arguing for a connection between names and anagrams of addresses?

Or are you saying that the person who knew MJK, also killed Eddowes? And the alias she (Eddowes) used is proof of their connection?

- Jeff

I hold that possibility as open, but its not a necessity. I could envision Mary being sought but killed first by a lover in a triangle with her for example. I also think Joe Issacs could be that guy. Just so I don't muddy it more....I believe the statement that Kate intended to claim reward monies for putting a name to the killer who was terrorizing the area. I also believe that her choices of aliases, within the short time span and because of the assumed murder sequencing, indicated she knew the next victim...or someone that was sought by perhaps the same people that Kates may have been bartering with. Maybe Mary Kellys name and address was also worth money to some. The only part of Marys life that seems to have exposed her to any intrigue or terrorist types may have been as a consort in Paris for a brief time. Lots of Fenians planning outrages in Paris in those days, it was known to be a staging city for pending actions. She left that gig...and to me seems to have tried to disappear in the crowd. Kates Irish connections from her Kate Conway days may have introduced her to some bad dudes in social circles. Even bad dudes can be fun partying it up in a pub.

Just trying to connect those dots, seeing if an explanation for the outrageous coincidence of having almost the complete name and address of the very next woman to be killed by unknowns is there somewhere.

[JeffHamm]

Mary Kelly was a stand alone victim, who was the real target, and she was using the alias of Kelly, and her killer knew the victim he sought was using the alias of Kelly and was working as a prostitute. Killed by process of elimination? A definite Irish connection to the killing !!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Ah, thanks Trevor. So the other victims (up to possibly Stride, pending on one's view of her inclusion), were just warm ups (since there's no Kelly connection there)? Or are they by a different hand?

[Trevor Marriott]

Sorry, I'm not following you, and it could just be me. But it sounds like you are arguing for Mary Jane Kelly to have been murdered by someone she knew, who was different from the person who murdered Catherine Eddowes.

But, if that's the case, doesn't that mean that it has to be a coincidence that Eddowes used the alias Mary Ann Kelly, and Jane Kelly, and that Mary Jane Kelly was the "next victim"? If the murderers are different people, then it is, by definition, a coincidence isn't it?

And yet, it seems you're simultaneously arguing for a connection between names and anagrams of addresses?

Or are you saying that the person who knew MJK, also killed Eddowes? And the alias she (Eddowes) used is proof of their connection?

- Jeff

Mary Kelly was a stand alone victim, who was the real target, and she was using the alias of Kelly, and her killer knew the victim he sought was using the alias of Kelly and was working as a prostitute. Killed by process of elimination? A definite Irish connection to the killing !!!!!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk