Coincidence?

[DJA]

Not really

John Stride was twenty two and a half years older than Liz.

[Michael W Richards]

True, but was this confirmed and advertised by the time Kate returned? More to the point, was it confirmed and advertised in the days before John Kelly and Kate decided to leave the hop-fields of Kent? If not, then there's no way that the reward could have been the reason why she returned.

I believe that we already know why they returned Sam, its on record that that season was particularly bad for hop picking. What she said about their return may or may not be the reality.

[Fiver]

Mary Kelly's?
because that is what we are talking about .....
about 6-8 from memory ,with some being too old or young to be a likely ripper victim

Eddowes was born in 1842. Keely was born around 1863.

The 1891 Census of England and Wales shows there were over 900 women living in London named Mary Kelly and who who were born between 1840 and 1870. If the Ripper was targeting Mary Kelly, but had no idea what she looked like, he could have killed hundreds of Mary Kallys and not gotten the right one.

If someone appeared on casebook with the name Sam F Lynn I, personally, would suspect it was yourself or someone who wanted to use a similar name to you and cause confusion.

You ,I strongly suspect, would accept it as a complete coincidence

There were roughly 5.5 million people living in London at the time of the Ripper murders. Total membership on this site is a bit less than that.

[Michael W Richards]

Eddowes was born in 1842. Keely was born around 1863.

The 1891 Census of England and Wales shows there were over 900 women living in London named Mary Kelly and who who were born between 1840 and 1870. If the Ripper was targeting Mary Kelly, but had no idea what she looked like, he could have killed hundreds of Mary Kallys and not gotten the right one.

I would say that for myself I never suggested "the ripper" killed Kate or Mary, so for me that's not a problem. I do suggest that Kates aliases... including 99% of Mary Jane Kellys full name, and address...may well suggest she knew Mary. Perhaps she intended on selling that information along with her silence.

[DJA]

There is the possibility that Eddowes proposed cutting the real 29 year old Mary Ann Kelly out of black mail proceedings,being unaware of Stride's earlier murder.

Tends to explain Jewry Street not being blamed for nothing,if you get my drift.

More so if it was her son involved in blackmailing the Cleveland Street clients.

Just a reminder ..... I do not prescribe to the Royal conspiracy.

[c.d.]

Thanks Joshua - so that also means she had no reason to go and earn money through prostitution that fateful night either.

She probably lead a hand to mouth existence. So even if she had no reason to prostitute herself that particular night we have no way of knowing how she would react to being approached by a paying customer. Prostitutes had to make hay while the sun was shining.

c.d.

[c.d.]

How in the world are we discussing various aspects of a blackmail plot when we have zero evidence of a blackmail plot in the first place?

c.d.

[DJA]

'cause John Kelly's boots sorta fizzled out?

[Fiver]

I would say that for myself I never suggested "the ripper" killed Kate or Mary, so for me that's not a problem. I do suggest that Kates aliases... including 99% of Mary Jane Kellys full name, and address...may well suggest she knew Mary. Perhaps she intended on selling that information along with her silence.

Catherine Eddowes gave the addresses of 6 Dorset Street and 6 Fashion Street.

Mary Jane Kelly lived at 13 Miller's Court.

That is not 99% of Mary Jane Kelly's address, it has nothing in common. There is no evidence that Eddowes knew Kelly. The is no evidence that Eddowes was trying to sell information about Mary Jane Kelly to anyone,

[Fiver]

There is the possibility that Eddowes proposed cutting the real 29 year old Mary Ann Kelly out of black mail proceedings,being unaware of Stride's earlier murder.

There is no evidence that any of the Ripper's victims were blackmailing anyone. The only theory that claims the victims were involved in blackmail is the nonsensical 'Royal conspiracy' of Joseph Gorman/Stephen Knight - an admitted hoax full of provably false claims that requires the killers, victims, and authorities to all act in as stupid a manner as possible.

[etenguy]

But once one starts to put a significance on the use of the alias "Mary Ann Kelly" as suggesting a reason for why Catherine Eddowes was killed in the first place, one has to argue that MJK was the intended victim. And once you do that, it all snowballs into la-la land pretty quickly in my view, which is why I end up opting for the coincidence interpretation in the end. Exploring something doesn't mean one has to accept it in the end after all.

Anyway, not sure how clear I'm being. Hope that makes some sense, and of course, you're not obliged to agree with my reasoning. - Jeff

Hi JeffHamm - your post was perfectly clear and well argued, but on this occasion I feel there is possibly a different conclusion to consider also.

I think the Royal Conspiracy Theory overshadows the thinking around the name and address coincidence between Eddowes alias and Kelly. It is possible to speculate a different scenario which is, dare I say more plausible, and does not involve a grand conspiracy.

I suggest the following as one such possibility. It is not what I think happened, nor is there any evidence it is true, it is simply a thought experiment to demonstrate a possibility that answers the questions which have been posed in this thread - namely:
1. If Mary Jane Kelly was the intended victim, why were the other unfortunates murdered?
2. If Mary Jane Kelly was the intended victim, why did the murderer not know what she looked like?
3. Why would someone wish to kill Mary Jane Kelly specifically, other than for the reason provided by the Royal Conspiracy theory.

We know that Catherine Eddowes stated "I have come back to earn the reward offered for the apprehension of the Whitechapel murderer. I think I know him." For the sake of this thought experiment, let us accept that is true. Catherine then communicates with the murderer in order to try and extort money. The murderer has no idea who this woman is but learns she goes by the name Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street. He decides she needs to be eliminated and kills her. He then learns from the papers that he has killed someone called Catherine Eddowes and wonders if he killed the right person. Learning of a Mary Jane Kelly living in Dorset street, he decides he needs to kill her just in case he mixed them up. Best way to make sure he does not make another mistake is to kill her at home.

The above is shot through with holes and I have no intention of trying to tighten it, it is there merely to suggest that if there was a link between the alias and MJK's name, and we can establish what that is, it may lead to finding some evidence which helps explain what happened and we would not necessarily have to rely on a grand conspiracy to do so.

[JeffHamm]

Hi JeffHamm - your post was perfectly clear and well argued, but on this occasion I feel there is possibly a different conclusion to consider also.

I think the Royal Conspiracy Theory overshadows the thinking around the name and address coincidence between Eddowes alias and Kelly. It is possible to speculate a different scenario which is, dare I say more plausible, and does not involve a grand conspiracy.

I suggest the following as one such possibility. It is not what I think happened, nor is there any evidence it is true, it is simply a thought experiment to demonstrate a possibility that answers the questions which have been posed in this thread - namely:
1. If Mary Jane Kelly was the intended victim, why were the other unfortunates murdered?
2. If Mary Jane Kelly was the intended victim, why did the murderer not know what she looked like?
3. Why would someone wish to kill Mary Jane Kelly specifically, other than for the reason provided by the Royal Conspiracy theory.



The above is shot through with holes and I have no intention of trying to tighten it, it is there merely to suggest that if there was a link between the alias and MJK's name, and we can establish what that is, it may lead to finding some evidence which helps explain what happened and we would not necessarily have to rely on a grand conspiracy to do so.

Oh, actually, that's an interesting idea that solves many of the issues. If I understand correctly, though, it implies Catherine was heading off to meet JtR to collect blackmail money when she was killed. That suggests their meeting was pre-arranged, which is unlikely. For one, when would she have arranged for this meeting, given she's been drunk and in gaol all day? and other such issues that go along with the "pre-arranged meeting". But, still, it does minimize some of the self inflating bubble that becomes the Royal Conspiracy Theory, which is good to see and nicely done.

I think what you suggest leads to issues related to "Kate and JtR had a pre-arranged meeting in Mitre Square for 1:30 am", which crops up in various forms, and doesn't garner much support from the evidence, but it's not as out of this world as the Royal Conspiracy lines tend to go.

So, while I'm not buying it, I like it and think it's a clever notion with regards to how Eddowes and Kelly may be connected in a way, but it turns on its head the typical idea that MJK was the prime target all along and that Eddowes was a mistaken identity case, and in fact Eddowes was the intended target but due to the alias issue, he thinks he's made a mistake, etc.

- Jeff

[etenguy]

Oh, actually, that's an interesting idea that solves many of the issues. If I understand correctly, though, it implies Catherine was heading off to meet JtR to collect blackmail money when she was killed. That suggests their meeting was pre-arranged, which is unlikely. For one, when would she have arranged for this meeting, given she's been drunk and in gaol all day? and other such issues that go along with the "pre-arranged meeting". But, still, it does minimize some of the self inflating bubble that becomes the Royal Conspiracy Theory, which is good to see and nicely done.

I think what you suggest leads to issues related to "Kate and JtR had a pre-arranged meeting in Mitre Square for 1:30 am", which crops up in various forms, and doesn't garner much support from the evidence, but it's not as out of this world as the Royal Conspiracy lines tend to go.

So, while I'm not buying it, I like it and think it's a clever notion with regards to how Eddowes and Kelly may be connected in a way, but it turns on its head the typical idea that MJK was the prime target all along and that Eddowes was a mistaken identity case, and in fact Eddowes was the intended target but due to the alias issue, he thinks he's made a mistake, etc.

- Jeff

Thanks Jeff - there is absolutely no reason you should buy in to it, it is purely my imagination and there is no evidence to support it. I just wanted to move away from the Royal Conspiracy Theory. It is also shot through with holes. Could I refine the idea into a plausible theory? I think I could but I do not intend to try, it was just a thought experiment. There are all sorts of scenarios we might imagine but without some evidence to support them they are nothing more than that.

I will tell you where I am. I find the name and address coincidence just a bit too coincidental. I don't believe some grand conspiracy theory results from that coincidence but I believe it might have some part to play in the murders. Of course, it may not. I just haven't reached the point that I can reconcile this level of coincidence, yet.

[Sam Flynn]

I find the name and address coincidence just a bit too coincidental.

But the names (plural) don't match and neither do the addresses (plural). It's hardly a coincidence if you have to munge together both names/addresses, disregard the "Fashion Street", drop the "Ann" from "Mary Ann" and swap it with the "Jane" from the pawn ticket, add a "twenty" to both addresses that wasn't there to begin with and ignore the fact that Miller's Court is never mentioned in either address, despite the residents and visitors to Miller's Court referring to it as precisely that, and not "26 Dorset Street" at all.

[etenguy]

But the names (plural) don't match and neither do the addresses (plural). It's hardly a coincidence if you have to munge together both names/addresses, disregard the "Fashion Street", drop the "Ann" from "Mary Ann" and swap it with the "Jane" from the pawn ticket, add a "twenty" to both addresses that wasn't there to begin with and ignore the fact that Miller's Court is never mentioned in either address, despite the residents and visitors to Miller's Court referring to it as precisely that, and not "26 Dorset Street" at all.

I really do appreciate the point you make. Nevertheless, I still find the coincidence startling. That Catherine Eddowes, when drunk or at least hungover, may have muddled the details of her alias a little does not surprise me. I realise that you have had this conversation a number of times with a number of people (based on posts in past threads) and you are reconciled the coincidence with its flaws is just that. I am still exploring and trying to convince myself either way. In the little thought experiment I played with above, the alias differences you mention don't matter, it would be sufficiently close for the murderer to act (but I only suggest that scenario as a piece of imaginative thinking not as a serious explanation). To be honest, I think you are likely correct but my head and heart are in two different places and I don't yet feel that.