Mary Jane Violence

[Fisherman]

Quite, and he could easily have known where they were in the abdomen. This was hardly forbidden knowledge, and (let's face it) it wouldn't take much of a genius to know where the womb was. Even an approximate knowledge would suffice, as once he was inside the abdominal cavity, it wouldn't take long to locate pretty much any organ in what is a rather small volume/area in the scheme of things.

if anything, the victorians were much more versed in the position of the inner organs than we are today, on account of the anatomical Venuses displayed at the time.

[Fisherman]

You are stating your 'belief' that he was also the torso killer as some kind of 'evidence' that he was already anatomically experienced though .....
It's only evidence for the very few who may believe that likely .
It's similar to when people point to the bible as evidence of God's existence...... if you believe the bible was merely written by imaginative men then it's not of evidential value

Horse anatomy is not similar
Here's a link on various renal anatomies for everyone

https://en.wikivet.net/Renal_Anatomy...%26_Physiology

As for waxworks , I'm not even going to bother going there

You are welcome to go anywhere you like. The fact is that there were anatomical Venuses on display in London at this time, and they were replicas of the real thing, with all the organs in their correct places. These organs were lifted out and replaced during pedagogical shows, visited by scores of Londoners and Eastenders, particularly from the working classes, and so it needs to be accepted that there was a great source for learning about female anatomy readily available. Johanna Ebenstein, curator of the Morbid Anatomy Museum in Bronx, has written a very good book on the subject, and she concludes that there were always anatomical Venuses on display in London in victorian times and for many years to follow.

To me, and hopefully to others, this is important information that may solve the problem about how the killer could have known where to find the inner organs. If you want to disregard it, then fine, but it does nbot go down well together with your remarks about how my thinking is akin to pointing to the Bible to prove Gods existence. There is reason to accept that the series had a common originator, and therefore it becomes very viable to look at the possible implications of it.

Not accepting that would perhaps be akin to putting your head in the sand like anb stride - the way you do about the wax museums. But fair enough - it is your call.

[Fisherman]

Not forbidden ,but limited to the learned.
Not genius ,but locating the kidney shows a great deal of knowledge .... as Brown confirmed

And that knowledge was readily available at a number of wax museums. It was never something that was hidden from the crowds. They were welcome to pay their fee and find out where the kidneys, the heart, the spleen, the pancreas, the lungs, the liver, the large colon, the small intestines etc, were placed within the body. And guess what? When the demoinstrator of the anatomical Venus lifted the kidneys out, he did so from the front of the body.

The knowledge was in no way at all "limited to the learned", I´m afraid. The milkman next door was as likely to know it as the blacksmith on the corner.

[Fisherman]

So why did he want to show the world he was medically trained?

I don't see how someone goes from the frenzied mutilation, including jagged ripping open of the body, to then delicately and precisely removing specific organs. Why no precise incisions to begin with?

Do you really think that there was anything precise and surgical in the state MJK was left? Can't see it myself, surely it is evidence of a curious frenzied psychopath.

Here is another question? In the history of serial killing has there ever been a doctor involved in ripping or cutting up victims, was Jeffery Dalmer medically trained? Was Dennis Nielson medically trained?


Tristan

Was Danny Rolling, the Gainesville Ripper? No. Did that stop the experts from reasoning that he had surgical experience? No.

It was never the "surgical traits" that impressed the medicos back in the late 1880:s, it was the cutting quality. That was very fast and very exact, and in no way what a surgeon would do.

[Michael W Richards]

Quite, and he could easily have known where they were in the abdomen. This was hardly forbidden knowledge, and (let's face it) it wouldn't take much of a genius to know where the womb was. Even an approximate knowledge would suffice, as once he was inside the abdominal cavity, it wouldn't take long to locate pretty much any organ in what is a rather small volume/area in the scheme of things.

Ah, but would anyone be able to cut in a manner that served accessing specific organs, removing them deftly, and in near darkness in publicly accessible venues? We differ Sam on what kind of skill set was needed in the respective cases, I believe you cumulatively believe little, and for me Annie is a marker. Whatever reasons he had for wanting to take her uterus it seems they were premeditated, and the mutilations were well executed with little superfluous activity.

[Fisherman]

Quite ....

Many point to Sequeira saying the light was sufficient which is ludicrous for many reasons.
Sequeira was a newly qualified GP with ,I would suggest ,limited experience of kidney removal in darkness .
His testimony makes it abundantly clear that he was talking about light in the square in general as he stated that he knew of the locations of the lamps Fact is the nearest lamp was deficient at that time and lunar lighting varies from one night to the next.
When Sequeira arrived there were a number of police lamps lighting that corner for him .
Three reasons why his statement, which is regarded as gold dust by some, is unsound

And not welcome at all to some.

[Fisherman]

No precise incision to begin with ... well ,how about haste , four layers of clothing to negotiate and light if you believe the location viable

Millers Court is a different ball game that I'm not going into on this thread and you can't compare other killers who had time and their own surroundings, not to mention literature at their disposal.
If you want to compare other killers you would have to come back with one who cut out organs at the roadside.... I think you may struggle to find one

Will the medically unversed Ed Gingrich do? He cut an opening of seven inches into his wifes abdomen in their own house and extracted all her inner organs through it. Including her left kidney.

[Michael W Richards]

[QUOTE=Al Bundy's Eyes;n724210]

So by Abberlines reasoning then Jacob Isenschmidt must be identical to George Chapman?

I think this demonstrates that lots of people would look almost interchangeable in the right environment. This was a ghetto, which tends to lead to colorless clothing and unkempt appearances, lots of men had facial hair, there were tons of men within striking distance that would fit any so called "suspect" sighting easily. That's why he could vanish into the night.

[Sam Flynn]

Ah, but would anyone be able to cut in a manner that served accessing specific organs

As to specifics, there are very few practical choices when it comes to the removal of abdominal organs in a public place; you're pretty much limited to kidneys, uterus and bladder. Their removal, from the killer's perspective, amounted to little more than tugging at the organ with one hand to stretch any attachments - making them easier to cut - then slicing through the attachments to free up the organ.

[Losmandris]

As to specifics, there are very few practical choices when it comes to the removal of abdominal organs in a public place; you're pretty much limited to kidneys, uterus and bladder. Their removal, from the killer's perspective, amounted to little more than tugging at the organ with one hand to stretch any attachments - making them easier to cut - then slicing through the attachments to free up the organ.

I totally agree. If he wasn't in there grabbing and slicing away, there would be no time for him to get away with it. And this could also seem to explain what he did to MJK, she was the result of him being able to take his time and really 'indulge' himself. I have no doubt that there would have been more MJKs if he had had more time. There is nothing surgical in what he did!

Tristan

[Losmandris]

No precise incision to begin with ... well ,how about haste , four layers of clothing to negotiate and light if you believe the location viable

Millers Court is a different ball game that I'm not going into on this thread and you can't compare other killers who had time and their own surroundings, not to mention literature at their disposal.
If you want to compare other killers you would have to come back with one who cut out organs at the roadside.... I think you may struggle to find one

Oh come on. Indulge us, it is a thread about Mary Jane Kelly after all. It would be good to get back on track.

Tristan

[Michael W Richards]

As to specifics, there are very few practical choices when it comes to the removal of abdominal organs in a public place; you're pretty much limited to kidneys, uterus and bladder. Their removal, from the killer's perspective, amounted to little more than tugging at the organ with one hand to stretch any attachments - making them easier to cut - then slicing through the attachments to free up the organ.

But that doesn't explain Sam, and this is for Tristan also, why they ...again with that word "specifically", sought out people who did have surgical knowledge... after only Annies murder. You see Im not contending that there was surgical grade skills on all the evisceration murderss, there clearly wasn't. Marys murderer required a knife, that's it. But there was with Annie.

[DJA]

As to specifics, there are very few practical choices when it comes to the removal of abdominal organs in a public place; you're pretty much limited to kidneys, uterus and bladder. Their removal, from the killer's perspective, amounted to little more than tugging at the organ with one hand to stretch any attachments - making them easier to cut - then slicing through the attachments to free up the organ.

What absolute rubbish!

Next you will be telling us how to play the flute ...... blow in one end and move your fingers around a lot.

[Sam Flynn]

That the authorities decided to seek a certain type of suspect tells us more about them than the killer.

[packers stem]

Will the medically unversed Ed Gingrich do? He cut an opening of seven inches into his wifes abdomen in their own house and extracted all her inner organs through it. Including her left kidney.

Doesn't even come close.
In their own house is quite different
ample time to stick his hand in and pull out everything he came across.

I'm watching 'holby city' on BBC1 ,I expect to be an expert surgeon in 30 minutes