Mary Jane Violence

[Michael W Richards]

[QUOTE=Losmandris;n724170]

Surgeons move deliberately, carefully; why would you conclude that a doctor would be able to remove an organ faster than a butcher?

Butchers wheeled their knifes with speed all day long and it is not unreasonable to assume that for every body a surgeon might ever cut into (abdominal surgery at the time being in its infancy), by comparison a butcher will cut into a score of bodies. It is the butcher who has the hand speed and the experience needed to remove the organs quickly, (within the time frame you offer up,) not a surgeon, who is not practiced, under any circumstance, to cut into a body quickly.

Medical knowledge does not add speed to the act, only hands on experience will make you faster, and surgeons never practice speed (but butchers do); the words speed and surgeon do not go together.

(I am speaking of abdominal surgery, not amputations, which I know were done quickly.)

It should come as no surprise that Dr. Brown's guys couldn't match the speed of the killer, the Ripper was a professional butcher who handled his knifes like an artist, probably with a speed and panache that would make most surgeons envious.

More likely he was in a frenzy and was pulling out anything he could get his hands on or could feel in the dark. I don't think JtR showed any of the skill or care of either a butcher or a surgeon, if he did, he would have never done it in time.

Tristan

As a matter of fact Tristan, I see a butcher who is a great candidate for Annies murder, and it would be logical to presume Polly fell for the man first. He was seen by Mrs Fiddymont of the Price Albert pub…"Mrs. Fiddymont, Chappell and Taylor later attended two identity parades, the first including suspect William Piggott and the second with John Pizer. In the first line-up, only Chappell picked out Piggott, but then stated that she was not sure if he was the man seen in the Prince Albert. With Pizer, no identification was made. Following the arrest of Jacob Isenschmidt, another parade was intended as soon as he was deemed to be in a satisfactory mental condition to participate^[2] . Inspector Frederick Abberline stated in a report that Isenschmidt was "identical with the man seen in Prince Albert P.H."<sup>[3

I should add that this is likely the only connection any of the cases had to royalty.</sup>

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

[QUOTE=Michael W Richards;n724176]

As a matter of fact Tristan, I see a butcher who is a great candidate for Annies murder, and it would be logical to presume Polly fell for the man first. He was seen by Mrs Fiddymont of the Price Albert pub…"Mrs. Fiddymont, Chappell and Taylor later attended two identity parades, the first including suspect William Piggott and the second with John Pizer. In the first line-up, only Chappell picked out Piggott, but then stated that she was not sure if he was the man seen in the Prince Albert. With Pizer, no identification was made. Following the arrest of Jacob Isenschmidt, another parade was intended as soon as he was deemed to be in a satisfactory mental condition to participate^[2] . Inspector Frederick Abberline stated in a report that Isenschmidt was "identical with the man seen in Prince Albert P.H."<sup>[3

I should add that this is likely the only connection any of the cases had to royalty.</sup>

So by Abberlines reasoning then Jacob Isenschmidt must be identical to George Chapman?

[packers stem]

Knowledge first,to be able to know what you are looking for, and where it is located, skill needed then to be able to take hold of it to be able to cut it out, with skill required to not to be able to damage the bladder.

For those who suggest a butcher here is a likely suspect !

Quite

Bovines have both kidneys on the right ,whereas Eddowes left kidney was removed.
Ovines have tiny kidneys 5-6 cms covered in fat
Only porcine anatomy is similar enough ..... and there, with the flying pig, go the Jewish butchers .....

or

Your local bricklayer in his demented 'frenzy' apparently completely ignores all the gooey intestines he could have run off with and digs his hands under the rib cage and by total fluke ,happens to cut the membrane and carefully remove the kidney !
The left kidney is higher than the right and the top half of it is protected by the two lowest ribs .
He therefore cuts underneath the ribcage with little room for manoeuvre......
Oh ....... in almost complete darkness

tbh ,I wouldn't expect a 10 year old to fall for this lol

Fact is ,nearly everyone pushing for zero anatomical skill does so either because they already have a pet suspect..... kos ,druitt ,lech,hutch who we know would not have anatomical skill or the random local bricky/ butcher / tailor and they don't fancy any surgeons would live in flower and dean street

[c.d.]

I am kind of set for the time being on them cd, youre right. Because I don't see the burden of proof met either. We are perhaps more alike than first meets the eye.

Hello Michael,

The problem is that so much of the evidence has been lost and is unavailable to us. So I don't see how we can apply the beyond a reasonable doubt standard. We are forced to apply a what is more likely so standard or a preponderance of the evidence. Using that standard I believe that Jack killed all of the victims in the C5. Obviously you don't which is fine. These boards would be quite dull if everybody agreed.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Quite

Bovines have both kidneys on the right ,whereas Eddowes left kidney was removed.
Ovines have tiny kidneys 5-6 cms covered in fat
Only porcine anatomy is similar enough ..... and there, with the flying pig, go the Jewish butchers .....

or

Your local bricklayer in his demented 'frenzy' apparently completely ignores all the gooey intestines he could have run off with and digs his hands under the rib cage and by total fluke ,happens to cut the membrane and carefully remove the kidney !
The left kidney is higher than the right and the top half of it is protected by the two lowest ribs .
He therefore cuts underneath the ribcage with little room for manoeuvre......
Oh ....... in almost complete darkness

tbh ,I wouldn't expect a 10 year old to fall for this lol

Fact is ,nearly everyone pushing for zero anatomical skill does so either because they already have a pet suspect..... kos ,druitt ,lech,hutch who we know would not have anatomical skill or the random local bricky/ butcher / tailor and they don't fancy any surgeons would live in flower and dean street

Ehrm - I don´t think that Lechmere - if the killer - had no anatomical insights as he cut Annie Chapman open. I think he may well have been involved in cutting up horse carcasses, and I believe he killed as early as 1873, and he would have gained a lot of insight into human anatomy during the early deeds in the 1870:s. The 1873 victim was cut into many pieces, and would have offered a very good option to learn a thing or two about anatomy.
Not that I want any debate over this, but since you seemingly think that I have a need to claim that there was no anatomical insight at all involved in the Ripper murders, I thought it best to correct you on that point. Lechmere would have opened a woman up and taken out her heart and lungs from the body (Rainham), for example, before he killed Chapman if he was the combined Ripper/Torso killer.

You should also keep in. mind that there were contemporary wax museums using a so called anatomical Venus to convey anatomical insights to the Londoners. These were wax models of women, where the innards could all be plucked out and demonstrated to the audience, what they looked like, where they were placed etcetera.The wax museums were popular within the working classes, and very much frequented. Just about anybody could have had far-reaching insights into the human anatomy through this phenomenon.

[Losmandris]

Quite

Bovines have both kidneys on the right ,whereas Eddowes left kidney was removed.
Ovines have tiny kidneys 5-6 cms covered in fat
Only porcine anatomy is similar enough ..... and there, with the flying pig, go the Jewish butchers .....

or

Your local bricklayer in his demented 'frenzy' apparently completely ignores all the gooey intestines he could have run off with and digs his hands under the rib cage and by total fluke ,happens to cut the membrane and carefully remove the kidney !
The left kidney is higher than the right and the top half of it is protected by the two lowest ribs .
He therefore cuts underneath the ribcage with little room for manoeuvre......
Oh ....... in almost complete darkness

tbh ,I wouldn't expect a 10 year old to fall for this lol

Fact is ,nearly everyone pushing for zero anatomical skill does so either because they already have a pet suspect..... kos ,druitt ,lech,hutch who we know would not have anatomical skill or the random local bricky/ butcher / tailor and they don't fancy any surgeons would live in flower and dean street

I think 'gooey intestines' are a bit different to an organ. The killer could well have been aware of some kind of anatomy i.e. people have kidneys, women have reproductive organs etc. but may not necessarily have had any practical experience (beyond maybe some amateur stuff with the pet cat or something), like a butcher or a surgeon. surely the fact he was so quick is a possible explanation as to frenzied rip and grab approach as is the fact that he took different parts from different victims. I would imagine a surgeon or a butcher would have had a particular organ in mind say and gone in specifically for that. Though I fear any kind of methodical approach would have resulted in him being caught.

Tristan

[packers stem]

I think 'gooey intestines' are a bit different to an organ. The killer could well have been aware of some kind of anatomy i.e. people have kidneys, women have reproductive organs etc. but may not necessarily have had any practical experience (beyond maybe some amateur stuff with the pet cat or something), like a butcher or a surgeon. surely the fact he was so quick is a possible explanation as to frenzied rip and grab approach as is the fact that he took different parts from different victims. I would imagine a surgeon or a butcher would have had a particular organ in mind say and gone in specifically for that. Though I fear any kind of methodical approach would have resulted in him being caught.

Tristan

To someone with no knowledge , a part of the small intestine would be just as much a trophy.
It wasn't a case that the first thing found was grabbed, so by definition, it wasn't 'slash and grab'
The uterus was removed (twice ) ,in Eddowes case without damaging the bladder ,which in the dark is some feat .
The left kidney is half underneath the rib cage.
To cut it out someone had to know it was behind the membrane and wasn't simply a cyst !
The membrane was cut ,not ripped, not torn but cut ! So he puts the knife underneath the ribcage and slices and then 'carefully' removes the kidney and yet people continue to ignore this evidence.

I suspect the kidney was deliberately targeted precisely for this reason , that it's an easily overlooked organ and hidden, to show to the world that he WAS surgically trained .
It's gone right over the heads of most people though in their pursuit of a 'profile' compliant eastender

[Sam Flynn]

The killer could well have been aware of some kind of anatomy i.e. people have kidneys, women have reproductive organs etc.

Quite, and he could easily have known where they were in the abdomen. This was hardly forbidden knowledge, and (let's face it) it wouldn't take much of a genius to know where the womb was. Even an approximate knowledge would suffice, as once he was inside the abdominal cavity, it wouldn't take long to locate pretty much any organ in what is a rather small volume/area in the scheme of things.

[packers stem]

Ehrm - I don´t think that Lechmere - if the killer - had no anatomical insights as he cut Annie Chapman open. I think he may well have been involved in cutting up horse carcasses, and I believe he killed as early as 1873, and he would have gained a lot of insight into human anatomy during the early deeds in the 1870:s. The 1873 victim was cut into many pieces, and would have offered a very good option to learn a thing or two about anatomy.
Not that I want any debate over this, but since you seemingly think that I have a need to claim that there was no anatomical insight at all involved in the Ripper murders, I thought it best to correct you on that point. Lechmere would have opened a woman up and taken out her heart and lungs from the body (Rainham), for example, before he killed Chapman if he was the combined Ripper/Torso killer.

You should also keep in. mind that there were contemporary wax museums using a so called anatomical Venus to convey anatomical insights to the Londoners. These were wax models of women, where the innards could all be plucked out and demonstrated to the audience, what they looked like, where they were placed etcetera.The wax museums were popular within the working classes, and very much frequented. Just about anybody could have had far-reaching insights into the human anatomy through this phenomenon.

You are stating your 'belief' that he was also the torso killer as some kind of 'evidence' that he was already anatomically experienced though .....
It's only evidence for the very few who may believe that likely .
It's similar to when people point to the bible as evidence of God's existence...... if you believe the bible was merely written by imaginative men then it's not of evidential value

Horse anatomy is not similar
Here's a link on various renal anatomies for everyone

https://en.wikivet.net/Renal_Anatomy_-_Anatomy_%26_Physiology

As for waxworks , I'm not even going to bother going there

[packers stem]

Quite, and he could easily have known where they were in the abdomen. This was hardly forbidden knowledge, and (let's face it) it wouldn't take much of a genius to know where the womb was. Even an approximate knowledge would suffice, as once he was inside the abdominal cavity, it wouldn't take long to locate pretty much any organ in what is a rather small volume/area in the scheme of things.

Not forbidden ,but limited to the learned.
Not genius ,but locating the kidney shows a great deal of knowledge .... as Brown confirmed

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Not forbidden ,but limited to the learned.
Not genius ,but locating the kidney shows a great deal of knowledge .... as Brown confirmed

In near total darkness.

[Losmandris]

To someone with no knowledge , a part of the small intestine would be just as much a trophy.
It wasn't a case that the first thing found was grabbed, so by definition, it wasn't 'slash and grab'
The uterus was removed (twice ) ,in Eddowes case without damaging the bladder ,which in the dark is some feat .
The left kidney is half underneath the rib cage.
To cut it out someone had to know it was behind the membrane and wasn't simply a cyst !
The membrane was cut ,not ripped, not torn but cut ! So he puts the knife underneath the ribcage and slices and then 'carefully' removes the kidney and yet people continue to ignore this evidence.

I suspect the kidney was deliberately targeted precisely for this reason , that it's an easily overlooked organ and hidden, to show to the world that he WAS surgically trained .
It's gone right over the heads of most people though in their pursuit of a 'profile' compliant eastender

So why did he want to show the world he was medically trained?

I don't see how someone goes from the frenzied mutilation, including jagged ripping open of the body, to then delicately and precisely removing specific organs. Why no precise incisions to begin with?

Do you really think that there was anything precise and surgical in the state MJK was left? Can't see it myself, surely it is evidence of a curious frenzied psychopath.

Here is another question? In the history of serial killing has there ever been a doctor involved in ripping or cutting up victims, was Jeffery Dalmer medically trained? Was Dennis Nielson medically trained?


Tristan

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

So why did he want to show the world he was medically trained?

I don't see how someone goes from the frenzied mutilation, including jagged ripping open of the body, to then delicately and precisely removing specific organs. Why no precise incisions to begin with?

Do you really think that there was anything precise and surgical in the state MJK was left? Can't see it myself, surely it is evidence of a curious frenzied psychopath.

Here is another question? In the history of serial killing has there ever been a doctor, was Jeffery Dalmer medically trained? Was Dennis Nielson medically trained?


Tristan

Harold Shipman? A poisoner though.

[packers stem]

In near total darkness.

Quite ....

Many point to Sequeira saying the light was sufficient which is ludicrous for many reasons.
Sequeira was a newly qualified GP with ,I would suggest ,limited experience of kidney removal in darkness .
His testimony makes it abundantly clear that he was talking about light in the square in general as he stated that he knew of the locations of the lamps Fact is the nearest lamp was deficient at that time and lunar lighting varies from one night to the next.
When Sequeira arrived there were a number of police lamps lighting that corner for him .
Three reasons why his statement, which is regarded as gold dust by some, is unsound

[packers stem]

So why did he want to show the world he was medically trained?

I don't see how someone goes from the frenzied mutilation, including jagged ripping open of the body, to then delicately and precisely removing specific organs. Why no precise incisions to begin with?

Do you really think that there was anything precise and surgical in the state MJK was left? Can't see it myself, surely it is evidence of a curious frenzied psychopath.

Here is another question? In the history of serial killing has there ever been a doctor involved in ripping or cutting up victims, was Jeffery Dalmer medically trained? Was Dennis Nielson medically trained?


Tristan

No precise incision to begin with ... well ,how about haste , four layers of clothing to negotiate and light if you believe the location viable

Millers Court is a different ball game that I'm not going into on this thread and you can't compare other killers who had time and their own surroundings, not to mention literature at their disposal.
If you want to compare other killers you would have to come back with one who cut out organs at the roadside.... I think you may struggle to find one