Was Jack enraged by watching soliciting

[Beowulf]

... no particular bruising. They don't scream. They don't get a piece of him or his clothes. ...So of COURSE he got them on the ground. But the question is, how?

But some DID have bruises. The reason I said, and it was supposition, without presenting a lot of reason for it, sorry, that he stalked and got them from behind, is because it would be one way to cut their throats without blood spurting all over him, it would be easier to execute a deep cut to the throat if they were pulled up against his body and then when they relaxed in death he could back up, letting them down and laying them out.

I do not pretend to have studied this intensely, just a preliminary theory I had going.

Here is a nice summary of the wounds from the autopsy reports:

http://www.pathguy.com/jack.htm

[curious]

But some DID have bruises. The reason I said, and it was supposition, without presenting a lot of reason for it, sorry, that he stalked and got them from behind, is because it would be one way to cut their throats without blood spurting all over him, it would be easier to execute a deep cut to the throat if they were pulled up against his body and then when they relaxed in death he could back up, letting them down and laying them out.

I do not pretend to have studied this intensely, just a preliminary theory I had going.

Here is a nice summary of the wounds from the autopsy reports:

http://www.pathguy.com/jack.htm

Hi, Beowulf,

Like you, I have associated the bruising and deaths with the victims having been stalked -- which basically would negate all the possible sightings and suspect descriptions -- IMHO

Unfortunately, I have not really arrived at any/many hard and fast beliefs.

[curious]

One of my earliest ideas (c 1972) on beginning to read seriously about the Ripper, was to the effect that Nichols' new bonnet might have been a clue. especially as a later (possible) victim (Coles?) also had two bonnets on her at the time of her death.

But "Polly" had had money that day and spent it - she told Emily Holland so -and thus I have conluded that it was "new" to her, but she had bought it as part of her "spree".

After mature and long consideration, I don't see any scenario in which "Jack" needed to tempt these unfortunate woman with anything so alluring as a bonnet. Fourpence would have done in most cases.
Phil H

Hi, Phil,
The first thing that jumped out at me. too, was that most of the victims appears to have something "new" or recently acquired. I'm still not sure that's not a clue.

Did Jack need to tempt the victims with little treasures? Of course not. Four pence would have bought and paid for each one.

But perhaps that was part of the fun for him, the game, his holding their lives in his hands and them actually liking him and having no idea -- until it was too late.

Since we don't know who or why . . .

Very early on I envisioned a hawker of some sort.

[lynn cates]

P & A

Hello Barbara.

"But some DID have bruises."

They did, indeed. That would be Polly and Annie. They also exhibited overt signs of strangulation.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Render unconscious...

I mostly agree with you Greg...the sex is all in the increasingly sensual movement of the knife and the caressing of the organs...however, I believe there is one more factor which gives a kick...the posing of the body...knees slightly raised, legs slightly apart, abdomen exposed...it's present with Tabram, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly...it may well have been present with Nicholls until Paul disturbed the crime scene by attempting to pull the clothing down...Stride who knows (I'm not going there ok!)...

It's, to my mind at least, another measure of who/what Jack was...

All the best

Dave

I also agree Dave, the same signature in all...............

Y'all, we discussed the chokehold quite a bit in the past. This is the only way Jack could have executed his plan.....either from behind as shown or via a Doctor Spock front throat grab...A quick google search can give you the particulars.....

What's more intriguing to me is where would such a technique be learned? My guess is as a street thug or in the military.........!

Interesting indeed.....


Greg

[Errata]

But some DID have bruises. The reason I said, and it was supposition, without presenting a lot of reason for it, sorry, that he stalked and got them from behind, is because it would be one way to cut their throats without blood spurting all over him, it would be easier to execute a deep cut to the throat if they were pulled up against his body and then when they relaxed in death he could back up, letting them down and laying them out.

I do not pretend to have studied this intensely, just a preliminary theory I had going.

Here is a nice summary of the wounds from the autopsy reports:

http://www.pathguy.com/jack.htm

Nice site there. Thanks.

The only perimortem bruising to be found on anyone are the bruises along the jaw of Nichols and Chapman. And they appear to be finger marks as opposed to blows. So someone gripped their jaws, as opposed to punching them in the face. All the other bruises appear to be a few days old.

And I totally agree with you that cutting their throats from behind is the easiest way to do it. The problem is, he didn't do it that way. Lord knows I've tried to find a way to make it work, but there is no way to come up behind someone and cut their throat without getting blood on the front of their clothes. The only scenario I could come up with that could keep their shirt fronts clean while still technically upright is this weird submission move where you sort of put someone in a reverse choke hold and bend them backward. Of course it's tough to cut someones throat with your arm around it... and you'd have to bend them to the perfect angle where the blood flows neither down the front nor up the back of the head... It's a terrible solution really.

So if he stalked them and blitzed them, he had to do something that gets them flat on their back, still alive, for their throats to be cut. Two victims shows signs of asphyxiation, but not to death. There are no bruises on the heads or solar plexus or throats that indicate some sort of stunning blow. But whatever it was, they didn't scream.

[Bridewell]

Chloroform?

Any thoughts on chloroform or some other noxious substance? I copied this from The Straight Dope website:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=157428

Inhaling a little will make you pretty loopy in about 10-15 seconds. Inhaling a lot will put you on the floor about as fast. As long as you're not given more, you'll be up in a minute or two, and clear-headed in a few minutes more. After that, you can expect nausea and headaches. And, of course, possible liver damage.

Might it also explain what looks like discoloration to the lower part of Liz Stride's face?

Regards, Bridewell.

[GregBaron]

Darn but No....

Any thoughts on chloroform or some other noxious substance? I copied this from The Straight Dope website:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=157428

Might it also explain what looks like discoloration to the lower part of Liz Stride's face?

Regards, Bridewell.

Sorry Bridewell, we've whacked the chloroform thing too and it won't stick.........it leaves residuals that even 19th century Medics could easily detect............stick to my chokehold........it's the only thing that works...........



Greg

[Bridewell]

Sorry Bridewell, we've whacked the chloroform thing too and it won't stick.........it leaves residuals that even 19th century Medics could easily detect............stick to my chokehold........it's the only thing that works...........

Greg

Hi Greg,

Fair enough.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Errata]

Sorry Bridewell, we've whacked the chloroform thing too and it won't stick.........it leaves residuals that even 19th century Medics could easily detect............stick to my chokehold........it's the only thing that works...........



Greg

The chokehold works, except for two problems. Firstly, it works through ischemia and not asphyxia (though you get a little of that sure) and these women did not have the discoloration classic to ischemia. Not did their autopsies show it, while they did show significant signs of asphyxia. And secondly, that particular chokehold does not render someone silent. Muffled and gurgly, but audible. Now there is a weird trick with a special arm band that shoves the adams apple almost out the back of the throat so that it plugs the airway, but I'm pretty sure that came about within the last 30 years. Possibly once Fight Club came out.

Which doesn't rule out a chokehold. It just casts doubts on that particular one. Unfortunately, every other chokehold at the time required having fought in India or China to be exposed to. Possibly Africa, but I haven't heard of a rich tradition of unarmed combat coming out of there.

[GregBaron]

Front grip...

The chokehold works, except for two problems. Firstly, it works through ischemia and not asphyxia (though you get a little of that sure) and these women did not have the discoloration classic to ischemia. Not did their autopsies show it, while they did show significant signs of asphyxia. And secondly, that particular chokehold does not render someone silent. Muffled and gurgly, but audible. Now there is a weird trick with a special arm band that shoves the adams apple almost out the back of the throat so that it plugs the airway, but I'm pretty sure that came about within the last 30 years. Possibly once Fight Club came out.

Which doesn't rule out a chokehold. It just casts doubts on that particular one. Unfortunately, every other chokehold at the time required having fought in India or China to be exposed to. Possibly Africa, but I haven't heard of a rich tradition of unarmed combat coming out of there.

I can't disagree with you here Errata, you know more about such things than I, but again, methinks the choke-hold is the only thing that works....

I also don't believe the pictured method was used, I think he grabbed them by the throat from the front, at least in C1 and C2...

I see only one other possibility....he was Rasputin and he hypnotized them..........!


Greg

[curious]

I see only one other possibility....he was Rasputin and he hypnotized them..........!


Greg

Or Dr. HH Holmes. I understand he could hypnotize his victims.

[Errata]

I can't disagree with you here Errata, you know more about such things than I, but again, methinks the choke-hold is the only thing that works....

I also don't believe the pictured method was used, I think he grabbed them by the throat from the front, at least in C1 and C2...

I see only one other possibility....he was Rasputin and he hypnotized them..........!


Greg

I tried to work with him gassing them for awhile... the appropriate chemicals in a corked bottle so when he offered them a drink they would keel over. Never could make it work, especially since most of them burst into flames when released from pressure.

You know what would work? If he placed fist and hand over the adam's apple in a Heimlich type maneuver Though that would take awhile. For that matter the Heimlich maneuver might work. But that came about 100 years too late.

[Bridewell]

Indian Harry

Unfortunately, every other chokehold at the time required having fought in India or China to be exposed to.

This calls to mind Thomas Bowyer, aka 'Indian Harry', the army pensioner who discovered the body of MJK. Does anyone know how old he was?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Wickerman]

Y'all, we discussed the chokehold quite a bit in the past. This is the only way Jack could have executed his plan.....either from behind as shown or via a Doctor Spock front throat grab...A quick google search can give you the particulars.....

Greg.
Given how the women were dressed, jackets with collars, and a suspect, regardless of which one you choose, are typically described as also wearing a jacket. I think you need to reconsider.

The effectiveness of the "Sleeper hold" depends on the amount of pressure that can be applied to either side of the neck, cutting off blood supply to the brain.
This kind of hold is always demonstrated (as in your pic) with a bare arm around an exposed neck.
Neither was the case with Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, or even Stride.

The sleeper hold is hard to apply and looses effect when both parties are fully clothed.
So, I would have say, this was not the method used, but then, I am inclined towards the ligature as the method to render them unconscious.

Regards, Jon S.