Was Jack enraged by watching soliciting

[Errata]

I think it's possible that the only real physical clues lie in HOW he left the bodies...but that's no more than a personal opinion...

All the best

Dave

You know that couch gag in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency? This my couch. It doesn't matter which way I turn it or in what combination, in the end I'm left with the distinct suspicion that the laws of space/time were broken at some point. It's so irritating.

[GregBaron]

More than one option...

Sorry I missed your reply..



Actually no, those bruises on Polly Nichols indicate the killer holding her head down with his left? hand, like so.. while he cut her throat.



Therefore, his hand would be positioned thus..



There are no bruises on the neck of Chapman, but there were scratches consistent with her scratching her neck to remove something very thin but tight.

Regards, Jon

Yes Wickerman, I've seen this sketch and agree with it. It could be though that two actions in the same areas produced the bruises. He may have grabbed her mouth/jaw by the right hand which would also produce what's evident, he may have grabbed the throat with the left or even put something over the nose...

After subjugation and laying on the ground he then lifted the head for the cut. Also, if you think about it, the victim was probably unconscious when the cut was administered so great force wouldn't be needed on the head to gain leverage. I'm not saying there wasn't but it wouldn't require a bruisers grip, just lift the chin and get the head out of the way...

And I still believe a ligature would have left more evidence, both on the neck and especially in the fingers and fingernails of the victims - who surely would have clawed for their lives.........yet there's no such evidence...

I also don't think the killer cared about covering ligature marks....hardly a worry for a maniac carving up women in the street.........plus he was unlikely to be able to see a ligature mark in the dark anyway........Are they going to arrest every man in Whitechapel who has twine, rope, wire or a chord on his person...........? I doubt it...

I like how some, especially Errata, are thinking out of the box here. I can not see anything but a chokehold that works. Maybe there's some chemical like chloroform that was used but leaves no traces.....?

Anyway, the irony is, 124 years out, we have no clue how the victims were so easily subdued and I believe if we could solve this sub-mystery, we would know a lot more about what type of man the killer was.............!



Greg

[lynn cates]

charming

Hello Ruby. Thanks. Actually, the knife work in BOTH Polly and Annie's cases were described as "skillful." So he should have been quite confident in his throat cutting skills.

Perhaps he was going for 3--as in "the third time's the charm" but was interrupted? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

worries

Hello Jon. Thanks. Given that one were arrested for a throat cutting, I doubt he would worry a good deal over being found with a ligature.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

right

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

"I think you will find they were two different types of cut.
One was a short stab and rip at the jugular. That was the killer strike.
The second cut was a long deep slice around the circumference of most of the neck."

Now you're talking!

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

I like how some, especially Errata, are thinking out of the box here. I can not see anything but a chokehold that works. Maybe there's some chemical like chloroform that was used but leaves no traces.....?

Anyway, the irony is, 124 years out, we have no clue how the victims were so easily subdued and I believe if we could solve this sub-mystery, we would know a lot more about what type of man the killer was.............!



Greg

Hallelujah.

My big thing is, that subduing these women in a fashion that causes signs of asphyxiation but no trauma, does not allow them to fight, scream, claw, kick, disturb the ground, transfer evidence and do it all quickly is clearly not impossible. He did it. But HOW???

To me, this is the mystery that needs to be solved before all others. If he used some chemical, and I can't for the life of me find a chemical that would work, that means he had access to odd chemicals. Which is a huge clue. If he used advanced hand to hand techniques, he had to have been a soldier. If he's just grabbing them around the throat, he had to have done it before because he had to have worked out the exact way to do it without allowing a scream, or getting battered by the victim. Which means he has more bodies out there.

He's either very well practiced, or very smart. The truth is, this part of his process is the most mysterious and potentially the most revealing. The mutilations tell us what he wants. The take down tells us who he is.

[lynn cates]

subdued

Hello Greg. Well, both Polly and Annie suffered from various kinds/degrees of incapacitation. They were rather easily subdued. Can't speak for the others.

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

Hello Ruby. Thanks. Actually, the knife work in BOTH Polly and Annie's cases were described as "skillful." So he should have been quite confident in his throat cutting skills.

Is it possible that skillful meant "so damn strong, the knife may not have been all the sharp, and he still managed"? Skillful could mean more than one thing-- it could mean that he knew exactly where to cut, and could find the vein in the dark, by touch, quickly, and get it with a minimum of cutting. Or it could mean that he was so strong, his only limitation was the tensile strength of the knife.

How sharp could the knife have been? I've read accounts of people committing suicide by cutting their own throats, which seemed to require an awful lot of determination, I'd think, but then, I've accidentally cut myself with really sharp kitchen knives, and not realized how badly right away, because it didn't hurt much, if I wasn't cutting peppers, and didn't get salt on the cut.

Then, maybe the skill was in sharpening the knife in the first place.

Does anyone think that JTR must have carried this knife in some kind of sheath? I'm trying to imagine some other way of carrying a knife that sharp so that it was concealed, without having it cut through a pocket, or cut him, if it was carried close to his body.

Hello Greg. Well, both Polly and Annie suffered from various kinds/degrees of incapacitation. They were rather easily subdued.

Catherine Eddowes had kidney disease, although we don't have any way of knowing just how sick she was. It's a possibility she had reactive hypoglycemia, or even subclinical diabetes (type I diabetes, but her pancreas makes some insulin, just not enough, so she wouldn't be completely dependent on injections, if she were diagnosed today). I don't know she had that, I just know that some of the diseases that produce the symptoms that were called "Bright's disease" in 1888 are frequently comorbid with pancreatic dysfunction. I'm not willing to put money on anything specific, but I feel pretty safe saying that Eddowes wasn't in good health.

Is it remotely possible that he came upon any of them passed out (not necessarily from alcohol) or asleep? again, not necessarily sleeping peacefully, but maybe fallen down from fatigue? I'm guessing that most of them were chronically sleep-deprived.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks. Given that one were arrested for a throat cutting, I doubt he would worry a good deal over being found with a ligature.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
I was meaning that anyone can carry a knife and explain it away, even as a means of self defense. Not so with a ligature, if you are found carrying one of those you have criminal intent.
People were often taken off the streets for questioning, when searched if a ligature is found, you are in poops-ville!

Regards, Jon S.

[Fisherman]

Lynn:

"Actually, the knife work in BOTH Polly and Annie's cases were described as "skillful."

Could you point me in the direction where Nichol´s wounds were described as skilfully inflicted, Lynn? I don´t remember seeing it myself, but I know you have a good eye for details so I guess you are correct here!

The best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

Is it remotely possible that he came upon any of them passed out (not necessarily from alcohol) or asleep? again, not necessarily sleeping peacefully, but maybe fallen down from fatigue? I'm guessing that most of them were chronically sleep-deprived.

Polly, Annie, and Kate for that matter must have fell asleep in some strange places

[lynn cates]

skillful

Hello Rivkah. Thanks.

“Is it possible that skillful meant "so damn strong, the knife may not have been all the sharp, and he still managed"?"

Doubtful. The knife was described as sharp. Try cutting meat with a sharp knife; now a dull one. See the difference in cuts?

“Skillful could mean more than one thing-- it could mean that he knew exactly where to cut, and could find the vein in the dark, by touch, quickly, and get it with a minimum of cutting. Or it could mean that he was so strong, his only limitation was the tensile strength of the knife.”

Skillful was described as per the mutilations. The chap who did for Polly and Annie was no stranger to a knife.

“How sharp could the knife have been?”

Quite sharp. Dr. Phillips thought it was a butcher’s knife well ground down.

“Then, maybe the skill was in sharpening the knife in the first place."

Well, he obviously did that.

“Does anyone think that JTR must have carried this knife in some kind of sheath?"

Well, my lad wore his apron and had his knives in it—until just after Polly was killed.

“Catherine Eddowes had kidney disease, although we don't have any way of knowing just how sick she was.”

Are you sure of that? Many researchers have reneged on that one.

“Is it remotely possible that he came upon any of them passed out (not necessarily from alcohol) or asleep? again, not necessarily sleeping peacefully, but maybe fallen down from fatigue? I'm guessing that most of them were chronically sleep-deprived.”

Don’t think so. The evidence for Polly and Annie is quite clear—they were strangled.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

ah!

Hello Jon. Thanks for the clarification.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Baxter

Hello Christer. Thanks.

"Could you point me in the direction where Nichol´s wounds were described as skilfully inflicted, Lynn? I don´t remember seeing it myself, but I know you have a good eye for details so I guess you are correct here!"

Delighted to. It is found in Baxter's summary of the Stride case. He refers there to BOTH Nichols AND Chapman as having "skillful mutilations." If you have "The Ultimate Companion" it's on p. 176.

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

Polly, Annie, and Kate for that matter must have fell asleep in some strange places

Ha. I meant he would have moved them after, to some place darker, for one. It was just a suggestion.

“Catherine Eddowes had kidney disease, although we don't have any way of knowing just how sick she was.”

Are you sure of that? Many researchers have reneged on that one.

From what I understand, "Bright's disease," which just meant a congestion of the blood vessels of the kidneys, had been a pretty easy diagnosis since 1830. The Dr. Bright it was named for managed to find excess protein in kidneys using crude, but for his time, brilliant techniques.

Anyway, if a visual exam showed kidney stones, congestion, or edema in the kidneys, a coroner would probably say "Bright's disease," without that meaning much in modern terms, but we can still think that Eddowes had some sort of kidney abnormality. It could have been a bladder infection that spread to her kidneys, though. All the different conditions that fall under "Bright's disease" range from kidney damage from untreated strep infection, to genetic conditions that cause kidney failure, to vitamin D deficiency. One thing that doesn't cause it is alcoholism, though, which seems to be what the coroner at the time inferred.

How serious her condition was, is anyone's guess. I know someone who has a genetic dominant form of polycystic kidney disease, but takes really good care of herself, and is very active, and because she's been in otherwise good health, has had a couple of laparoscopic procedures that have kept the disease at bay; you'd never have an idea there was anything wrong with her.

“Is it remotely possible that he came upon any of them passed out ... or asleep? ...”

Don’t think so. The evidence for Polly and Annie is quite clear—they were strangled.

Good enough.