What kind of knives were used?

[niko]

Hi folks... can anyone point me to a list or description of the knives JtR used, please?

Cheers

Helena

Hi Helena, you ask what knives were used ? hmmm, very differcult question to answer !! I hope you don't think I'm a nag !! but I must say that Dr. Phillips at Strides inquest mentions without a doubt that the knife Thomas Coram found "COULD" have produced the incisions and injuries to the neck !! "BUT" was not a knife that he would of chose !! (what knife would of Dr. Phillips of chose then ?).

Many members, if not all reject the Coram knife, inclusive some say it was disgarted by the police in 1888, I have found no prove of this yet nor has any board member posted this so called "fact" to me !! on the contary I found press reports saying things like "finding of a knife, important evidences".

I would like to point out like I have on previous ocassions, that the "tip" of the knife I have was blunted when I found it (the tip missing). The only explanation I have for this is, that the knife fell point first on to a hard stone floor and chipped the tip of the point of the blade "OR" the point struck bone and chipped when butchering meat.

Helena forgive me if you think this post is on the wrong thread, all the best, agur.

Niko

[Errata]

Hi Errata ,


Are you hinting at the suggestion that more than one knife was used in each murder ?

moonbegger .

Personally, I think there were two knives. I have a hard time reconciling the various kinds of wounds with only one blade. Despite the fact that a single blade would make more sense. People have odd relationships with their knives. Even name them. It's possible that Jack wouldn't use Ol' Betsy for just any task. Only the special ones. So throat cuts are made with some random utility blade, and Ol' Betsy came out for the mutilations. Despite the proximity, Eddowes' face was mutilated with a longer blade. You'd think if you cut the neck with a small knife, it's still in your hand, you cut the face with a small knife, but no. So I don't know why, but I think he did use two knives.

[C. F. Leon]

Off the point () a bit , but do you know how readily available large serrated knives would have been at the time?


-- CF Leon

[moonbegger]

Hi Errata,

"It's possible that Jack wouldn't use Ol' Betsy for just any task"

So are you now suggesting Jack had a Cow

In all seriousness , would the knives be easy to to conceal in a pocket , or are you thinking along the lines of being carried externally (IE) parcel or bag ?

moonbegger .

[Archaic]

Knife As Sexual Fetish

If I am remembering correctly, no knife was every found at any of the eleven (?) Whitechapel murder scenes. This also tells us that he was a man/men who always made sure he/they took the weapon away with them, even though fingerprinting was unknown. I wonder why.

Hi everyone.

In my opinion the killer would have hung onto his knife even if he could afford to buy a new one for each murder.

The murders weren't simple killings, they were highly deviant sexual homicides incorporating numerous paraphilias- sexual mutilations, taking body parts as trophies, etc.

If the killer is so depraved as to want to take a bloody uterus for a trophy, why would he live his knife behind? It has highly personal sexual meaning for him; it's symbolic of his power, his dominance, his deadly cunning, his ability to utterly ravage and destroy his victim and to terrorize the public... his knife made all his sick fantasies come true.

I'd be amazed if he didn't keep it and treasure it.

I believe he made a fetish of his knife or knives.

Best regards,
Archaic

PS: Interesting post Errata!

[lynn cates]

different knives

Hello Errata.

"Personally, I think there were two knives. I have a hard time reconciling the various kinds of wounds with only one blade."

Hmm, keep going.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

Okay, maybe naming weapons is an American thing. But I had a utility knife named Flutterby the Destroyer. I loved that knife...

As for concealing them, I think the larger knife would require more care, but I do think they could both be concealed, especially if Jack were wearing a coat. The small one likely fit in a pocket, and may very well have been a clasp knife. I think the other blade would have to be sheathed, and possibly strapped to a belt. But it could have been shoved in the waistband, again, as long as it was sheathed.

As for the wounds, well, I'm working from memory here and may not get everything exactly right, so pardon that. With the exception of Stride, the throat cuts of the C5 were a mess. And very very deep. The coroner (at least in Nichols' case) seemed to be of the opinion that this was done with a single incision. Which is impossible. No knife in the history of ever has ever been able to get to the bone in a single slice. That requires a sword. And not just any sword. It would have to be a high tensile sword with an extremely sharp edge, like a katana. And she would have to be upright with nothing blocking the swords progress on any side. But we know she wasn't upright, because there was no blood on her chest. But that would probably narrow down the suspect list, since there can't have been more that a dozen katanas in all of England.

So barring a Katana, there are only two other ways to get to bone. Sharp force trauma, say an axe, but that likely would have simply severed the head, or several slices. Within reasonable parameters, the longer the blade, the cleaner the cut. This theory dissolves once you get a blade longer than your forearm at which point you can't control the blade, or smaller than you end thumb joint, like a scalpel. Then you have perfect control of the blade, and can make a clean cut. These cuts were a mess, which makes me think of a blade on the shorter end of the spectrum, maybe two inches. What causes a clean slicing motion is control, long strokes, and the weight of the blade providing the downward pressure. A small knife cannot use long strokes, and theres no weight to them, so you have to push down on them. When you do that, the flesh is as likely to sort of burst as to slice open. And it makes a mess. Cutting a throat is not terribly unlike carving a turkey. Once you start sawing away at something you know you aren't using the proper tool. But the end of the blade could not have extended much past the ear, or it would have changed where the cut was. So it had to be small.

As for the abdominal injuries, that's a little more complicated. A clasp knife was not used to enter the abdomens of anyone. They aren't strong enough. You could stab with one, but a lot of the wounds were sort of a stab and pull, and putting force on the clasp like that would snap the blade from the handle. Theres also no weight behind the blade, and a strong stab would be as likely to snap the blade shut on your fingers as actually penetrate. It had to be a fixed blade knife. But because of the lacerations to Eddowes kidney, it had to be dual edged. A dual edged blade would also make the extraction on Chapman's uterus much easier. The doctor ascribed it to a single sweep of the knife, which would require detailed anatomical knowledge. I don't think he had that. However, being able to use both edges of the blades in a back and forth motion would look like a single cut, as far as there being no other obvious entrance wounds in that area. In other words, he wouldn't have to cut, pull the knife out, and cut again.

Also the wounds on Nichols have a sort of muddy directionality. They are listed as left to right. But the downwards cuts were on the right side. It makes sense that he was on her right side, which meant that he stabbed on the left and pulled towards himself. It's an off balance position. First of all, it's actually not easy to hold a knife backward. You are just as likely to lose your hold on the blade. That because both knives and handles have directionality. A dual edged blade does not have a directional handle. The other thing is such an off balance position requires some sort of stability. That argues for both hands being on the hilt, and there being a hilt guard of some kind. Dirks are beautiful instruments, but stab hard enough and you'll put the whole weapon in someone. The argument against a hilt guard of course is that to the best of my knowledge, no hilt marks were found on the bodies. That could be because he was cutting through clothes, he was pretty controlled, or event that the hilt and guard were wrapped. But I don't know.

Basically, I think I know that the weapon used to cut the throats was a short blade. And I know the abdominal cuts were made with a longer one. There is evidence on one person that blade was dual edged. I can't come to any definite conclusion as to what that second blade was, just that it was not the same as the first. For that I would need to know the wound tracks, and that information just isn't available.

[Cogidubnus]

Errata and Archaic exchanges

Wow, now that last coupled with the previous ones on this thread, are about the most comprehensive examination of blade/knife characteristics I've seen so far on Casebook...Lots to think about there...

Thanks to both of you

Dave

[Archaic]

Thanks very much Dave, glad to help.

But I'm not sure I'd want to meet Errata in a dark alley... ... I picture her as a mysterious female Ninja now.

Personally, what I'm most interested in is trying to get inside the mind of the killer, trying to understand what the murders were from his perspective.

That's difficult to do and frequently disturbing, seeing as I'm a (fairly) normal and well-adjusted individual, but I try.

Thanks and best regards,
Archaic

[Bridewell]

It had to be a fixed blade knife.

I'm taking it that what Errata calls a clasp-knife is what we Brits term a penknife? What about what we call a lock-knife - a folding knife whose blade locks into place when open? Just while I have the thought in mind, JtR, whoever he was, must have run the risk of being stopped, and possibly searched. Who could have carried the sort of 2-knife combination which you suggest without arousing suspicion?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

A clasp knife is exactly what it says Colin...and far more meaty than a modern day pen knife (which actually is anything but...)...Go to google images and enter clasp knife....It's probably what you or I would have referred to as a box knife...

A modern pen knife isn't like a victorian pen knife either - the latter was a knife with a short almost triangular blade literally intended to sharpen the quill end of a wing feather so as to write with it after dipping in ink...

All the best

Dave

[moonbegger]

Hello,Hello,Hello,

"Who could have carried the sort of 2-knife combination which you suggest without arousing suspicion?"

I'm so glad you asked that question bridewell .. i wanted to ask it but i didn't fancy the weight of the Ripper world crashing down on me again

Also wasn't Eddows ear cut slightly at the bottom [in regards to the size of blade] ?

cheers all

moonbegger

[Errata]

I'm taking it that what Errata calls a clasp-knife is what we Brits term a penknife? What about what we call a lock-knife - a folding knife whose blade locks into place when open? Just while I have the thought in mind, JtR, whoever he was, must have run the risk of being stopped, and possibly searched. Who could have carried the sort of 2-knife combination which you suggest without arousing suspicion?

Regards, Bridewell.

A clasp knife is what I would call a utility blade. A two to thee inch blade that folds into the handle. Today, they have belt clips attached. A lock knife is unlikely, though not impossible. They did exist, but didn't gain any popularity until the turn of the century, and weren't mass produced until the 60s I think. As far as being searched, I don't think he could have gotten around suspicion for having a couple of knives on him. I always thought that the perfect job for Jack the Ripper would be a knife sharpener. He would have any number of tools at his disposal before his customers picked them up again, and he would have a reason to have knives on him, he could say he was delivering them to their owners.

On the other hand, he could just say he was going to use them to scare the crap out of a gambler who owed him money, and even if they popped him for it he would be out in a couple of days.

But they would have to search him, and pat him down to find both knives. Likely he shoved the larger knife in his waistband at his back. so if he empties his pockets, all the cops will find is a small knife any number of people own. They would have to actually lay hands on him to discover the other blade. And that seems unlikely unless they actually arrest him.

[Errata]

But I'm not sure I'd want to meet Errata in a dark alley... ... I picture her as a mysterious female Ninja now.

Hahahha. I wish. No, I worked at a Renaissance festival for 15 years, collected knives, I've spent a fair amount of time in a kitchen, and I was a set decorator for an outdoor festival forever. I've used knives on anything from wiring to human flesh (because it's really the only way to get thorns out). I just know how they work. Carving, slicing, sawing, tracing, and puncturing, I've done it all. Usually with Flutterby the Destroyer, a leaf blade my uncle gave forever ago. I'm even SAFD trained in 9 types of swords and 3 types of daggers.

I've broken more than a hundred blades not counting exacto blades. Some of those were swords, and when that happens I guarantee you that you get a unique appreciation for the weak points of any given blade. I once got hit in the back of the head by the top 24 inches of a broadsword that broke about 50 yards from me. Unfortunately my nickname is "Duck" which in hindsight was a terrible thing to allow, so needless to say I got beaned A LOT.

I have no real skill with a blade, just years of experience screwing up with them. So really I learned through doing, and also through a nasty habit of inviting knife salesmen in, listening to their spiel, and then scaring the crap out of them by insinuating that I'm a serial killing cannibal. Which I used to do with Jehovah's Witnesses, but it turns out they have no sense of humor that modern science can detect. Now I just invite them in for a bath, so I can can watch the wheels churn on whether a bath in front of a stranger is worth a potential convert.

[Bridewell]

I have no real skill with a blade, just years of experience screwing up with them. So really I learned through doing, and also through a nasty habit of inviting knife salesmen in, listening to their spiel, and then scaring the crap out of them by insinuating that I'm a serial killing cannibal. Which I used to do with Jehovah's Witnesses, but it turns out they have no sense of humor that modern science can detect. Now I just invite them in for a bath, so I can can watch the wheels churn on whether a bath in front of a stranger is worth a potential convert.

You're getting scarier by the minute. Remind me never to disagree, even to the slightest degree, with anything you post ever again.

Regards, Bridewell