Serial Killers, A pattern???

[corey123]

Martha

That was probally due to intercoarse that most likely prospired and as I said again and again I believe she was mutilated. 39 stab wounds, a fit way to mutilate.

Yours truly

[lynn cates]

Martha

Hello Corey.

"In Liz there was no mutilation, so no reason to lift the skirt in the first place."

But isn't that true also of Martha? Yet her skirt was up.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

ago paenitentiam

Hello E. Actually, it is MY bad habit to hijack threads, so I was being self referential.

The best.
LC

[Mrs. E. Nigma]

Hello E.

"Maybe if Jack did kill Liz he strolls into the yard, sees what is going on, and stops it. Then Liz takes out the cachous expecting a business transaction to take place, and is caught off guard."

Well, could be. I'd wonder about the problem of distance since the altercation began near the gates. Liz seems to have fallen from BSM just inside the gates. She needs to shift another 8-10 feet towards the kitchen door. That is not an insurmountable problem. The violence escalates and they go further up towards the door. Jack sees what's happening and shoos off BS man.

Now, it seems natural that Jack, in coming into the yard and getting rid of BSM would be standing east of Liz, whilst she is to the west. He produces the cachous, then strangles and cuts. The problem is that he needs to be slightly behind her and to her right for this to happen.

But I shall say no more so as not to hijack Corey's thread. But this might be great fun on the Stride thread.

The best.
LC

Right you are. Never my intention to hijack his thread, just a thought I had while reading. I have posted a thread with that theory under "Jack- The White Knight".

[corey123]

Kelly

As I am sure, I think that kelly was only wearing a chemise, so there would be no skirt to life, In Liz there was no mutilation, so no reason to lift the skirt in the first place.

yours truly

[lynn cates]

skirting the issue

Hello Corey. Notice that, in the cases of Liz and Mary Jane, the skirts are left alone. Now why is that? Hmmm. Interesting.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

sequence

Hello E.

"Maybe if Jack did kill Liz he strolls into the yard, sees what is going on, and stops it. Then Liz takes out the cachous expecting a business transaction to take place, and is caught off guard."

Well, could be. I'd wonder about the problem of distance since the altercation began near the gates. Liz seems to have fallen from BSM just inside the gates. She needs to shift another 8-10 feet towards the kitchen door. That is not an insurmountable problem. The violence escalates and they go further up towards the door. Jack sees what's happening and shoos off BS man.

Now, it seems natural that Jack, in coming into the yard and getting rid of BSM would be standing east of Liz, whilst she is to the west. He produces the cachous, then strangles and cuts. The problem is that he needs to be slightly behind her and to her right for this to happen.

But I shall say no more so as not to hijack Corey's thread. But this might be great fun on the Stride thread.

The best.
LC

[corey123]

Skirts

I have noticed the skirts,
How they seem to be pulled over their hips. I belive this maybe a sign but we cant really be for sure. It points to the exploiting of the victims, as I suggested with Narcissism.

yours truly

[lynn cates]

pattern

Hello Corey. Well, the usual pattern is Sir MM's "escalation of illness" thesis. It posits that the mutilations increased from Polly to Mary Jane because the ripper became increasingly disturbed due to his sexual insanity.

While not impossible, it is VERY tricky--especially with the inclusion of Stride. Tabram can be thrown in, if you like, and roughly along the lines you suggest. I personally look to her skirts as the most likely point in favour of having "Jack" as her assailant. (By the way, it is NOT a good sign when an old person spends his excess time thinking about women's skirts.)

At any rate, there is food for thought here.

The best.
LC

[corey123]

Erryn

Good point,

Thats an interesting idea? Hmmm, I dont know, that would also fit in to the theory, it is a, sort of speak, trial.
Maybe he did that, its entirly possible.

yours truly

[Mrs. E. Nigma]

Hello Corey. Well, if Liz was soliciting, it is usually thought that she did so near the gates. OK. If Jack met her there, we need a forensics reconstruction to show how they wound up 10 feet away, Liz on her side, with cachous between her left thumb and forefinger, and none spilled.

The speculation is that her assailant was just behind her and to one side. He pulled her from behind by her scarf and cut her throat as she fell. Now, given her body position, she was exiting the yard.

You will notice that some of these elements CANNOT go together.

The best.
LC

Has anyone ever etertained the idea that maybe Jack played the white knight and "saved" Liz from BS man? I don't think if the cachous were in her hand when she was thrown to the ground that any of them would be intact. Maybe if Jack did kill Liz he strolls into the yard, sees what is going on, and stops it. Then Liz takes out the cachous expecting a bussiness transaction to take place, and is caught off guard. Just a thought.

Best Wishes and Happy Holidays to All,
Erynn

[corey123]

Perrymason

As you are entierly correct, there is no circumstancial nor physical evidence to prove that they ARENT related, so it truly depends on the ripperologists point of view.
I truly see a pattern with the six killings and I can state my reasons, this thread was to place out my theory of Narcissism, which I belive to fit actually very nice with the killings.

And lynn,

you are right, why place the pills in her hand, well I only believe to answer that question we would have to know the killer.

and yes I have read some of it.

yours truly

[lynn cates]

points

Hello Corey.

"All these things fit."

Well, some of them do. I wonder why he is dragging her into the yard? To have a dark place for mutilation? Very well. So, why did he not mutilate? Well, there was no time. But he had time to put the cachous in her hand? Motive? I wonder if his motive was to bedevil poor ripperologists 121 years later? If so, he certainly succeeded!

Narcissism? Well, I usually think of the generic variety, not its clinical analogue. Have you had a glance at Archaic's post about sadism/perversion? Interesting.

The best.
LC

Its also evident that any theory about the killer to be credible has to address the timings and circumstances of the murders independently, and it is not enough to assume one kind of behavior then modifies itself without any external stimulus or reasonable rationalizing.

I think your energy is great corey, and its clear that you are reading and researching your areas of interest in these cases. Keep up the good work.

But I submit this simple truth to you while you do try to get a grasp on this "Jack" fellow........When we study serial killers in the modern era we find that they can kill in many different ways and with many different weapons and under different circumstances, but the reason they kill in the first place is often stable throughout any series of acts they might commit. If a sick individual hates women, he may choke, stab, slice, mutilate, abduct, torture or defile them in any number of ways. But he kills because he hates women. Or whatever his skewed thought processes tell him is the reason.....point being, there is always a reason.

In the Canonical Group, there is no evidence at all, physical or circumstantial, that the reason each were killed was a constant, consistent element of all 5.

My best regards corey

[corey123]

Here

Lynn,
for one I believe the pills were placed there, he pulled her from behind by the scarf, pulling her further into the yard by knife point, 10ft into the yard he cuts her throat, I dont believe her to be soliciting either, the dress up, asking for a clothes brush, having the pills in the first place, I just believe he found a victim at that time who fitted and took the oppertunity.

She was found with her feet toward the exit, I dont believe she ever saw her assailent, she didnt scream for he had a knife to her throat, if she screamed he would likely cut her throat and no one would save her anyways so why bother. She probally was paralized from fear in that situation as well.

All these things fit. At least in my mind.

Of the disscussion of Liz I know you, like me, are interested in psychological disorder with the ripper. How do you think Narcissism fits with the ripper??

yours truly

ps. I read the ives entrys you sent me, you were right, an interesting fellow indeed.

yours truly