choked rather than strangled

[chrismasonic]

an observation

it has always seemed to me that victims were choked rather than strangled,
before the tools came out.

a constriction choke cuts off the oxygen travelling to the brain via the carotid arteries and will put someone out in just a few seconds...and such a choke is very easy to apply IF you know how...leverage and technique over strength.

strangulation cuts off the air to the lungs,its a more physical affair and takes much longer and much more effort...

i dare say someone getting strangled is going to be thrashing,scratching and fighting,the attacker is only an arms length away from kicks,knees,the aggressor will be off balance unless driving the victim against something etc

whereas when a choke is applied from the rear,after a split second of shock/panic you are helpless to prevent your brain going to sleep

this leads me to believe that indeed the victims were choked from behind lowered to the ground when unconcious and then worked upon...

just a theory...

[George Hutchinson]

And not a bad one, either (I feared the worst when I saw the 'masonic' part of your ID...)

There is another theory favoured by our own Tom Wescott that the women had their feet pretty much removed from under them whilst in a stranglehold and had their throats cut as they were being lowered.

Both ideas perfectly possible, I would've thought. I never realised there was a difference between choking and strangulation until your post.

Welcome, by the way!

PHILIP

[chrismasonic]

thank you...
thats actually my name...
my family havn't been masons since my dad decided it was more fun to be a teddy boy...

i'm a brazilian jiu-jitsu practitioner and when i have a choke secured from the back it really only takes about 3-5 seconds to put someone to sleep if that is your intention...your pretty safe too,you can hide your face behind the persons shoulder too and lower them when they go limp...whereas a strangulation from the front puts you only an arms length away and will most probably get your faced scratched to bits during the panic...

am i suggesting jack knew jiu-jitsu?
i don't know...probably not,but a rear choke is a fairly common technique...i really don't know where in the world he might have picked it up but i am convinced he used a such a move to incapacitate his victims

[Nemo]

Hi

There is another technique which causes instantaneous unconciousness - a sharp blow is applied to both sides of the neck which causes a pulse of blood toward the brain. This can be accomplished with chopping blows to each side of the neck - karate style, or alternatively gripping the neck with both hands and jerking strongly inwards.

What do you think of the possibility that 4 of the C5 were already prone before the arrival of the Ripper?

It was illegal to sleep on the street and at the times Polly and certainly Annie were killed I think most or all of the dosshouses would have been shut. They may have lain where they were killed trying to get a few hours drunken sleep before the morning, saving the price of a bed. Catherine Eddowes may have lain in the darkest corner of the Square in a similar fashion and of course Kelly was in bed.

It would explain why Polly was in an otherwise deserted Buck Row, though she was probably the most exposed to police attentions, and why nothing was heard either in Bucks Row or Mitre Square. It would also explain why the Ripper probably was not seen with his victims beforehand. He simply came across lone women sleeping on the street - a common occurence in the East End at the time .

I know it was raining etc on some of the nights that the murders occurred - but this does not negate the possibility that some or all of the victims found on the street would doss in a doorway etc being destitute and all. The alternative was to keep walking the streets.

This would hold true for Tabram also.

Just speculating...

[chrismasonic]

i know a very similar technique to the one you described...a nutcracker choke where you grab both sides of a collar (fingers in,thumbs out) using it as an achor and turn you knuckles into the carotid...its very painful but results in the desired effect...
but i still think the rear choke was used because it offers more control over the person...

[Nemo]

Is the rear choke that you describe accomplished with one arm appling pressure to the neck?

The evidence in Polly's case especially, seems to point toward the Ripper grabbing her by the face with one hand at least, probably covering the mouth and nose.

[Pinkerton]

I started a similar thread a few months back that can be found here. I also believe a rear choke was applied. Bruising was found under the jaw line of a few of the victims which I believe bolsters this theory. My biggest question has always been would such a choke hold be taught in either the British army or the police of the time? I suppose we would need to find a historical "training manual" to know the answer to that.

The evidence in Polly's case especially, seems to point toward the Ripper grabbing her by the face with one hand at least, probably covering the mouth and nose.

If my own past martial arts training serves me correctly it wouldn't BE NECESSARY to cover the mouth and nose of the victim to silence them if the choke hold is applied properly. By squeezing the side of the neck (choking the blood) AND pulling the elbow over the windpipe (cutting off air) you should be able to silence the victim as well. However I'll let chrismasonic answer this since he is more up on martial arts than myself.

Tom Wescott that the women had their feet pretty much removed from under them whilst in a stranglehold and had their throats cut as they were being lowered.

I think Tom is close with this idea but this method seems like more trouble than its worth. Why cut their throat WHILE you're lowering them to the ground? It would be easier to just choke the person out while they're standing. Then lower them to the ground and once the victim is on the ground THEN cut their throat. This way you can keep the blood from getting all over you. Maybe Tom has some reason why he believes this is the case (I haven't heard his explanation).

[chrismasonic]

i'll see if i can put the technique into words...
from behind wrap an arm around the neck of your victim and reach for your opposite bicep,the victims neck should be directly lined up with the crease in your arm,your bicep snug to one carotid,your forearm to the other...now keeping that hand one your opposite bicep or sometimes nearer the shoulder (this is the fulcrum from where leverage shall be applied)...fold your other arm and fish it towards the back of the persons head...then you can either bring your elbows in together...tense your wrapping forearm and bicep...or simply take a big breath to expand your chest...push the head forward into the choke as you squeeze until they go limp

my explanation took a while and i hope it helps...the technique as i said earlier takes a split second to apply and only a few seconds to execute...it doesn't give the victim a chance to shout or scream at the most it limits them to a gargle or forced whisper

sometimes when fighting a person who knows this technique themselves the try to defend it,as you try to wrap the first arm the victim trys to hide the chin to prevent your arm getting underneath it...no matter,the choke will go right across the mouth and do the same much more painfully

this open handed technique is used above all others by special forces to incapacitate a person quickly and silently...i have seen it demonstrated with a knife...where the first hand wraps as before and sticks the knife into the side of the neck the second arm folds over the first wrist and then reachs for the back of the head...squeeze and when they go limp bring the knife across the throat...this version however i dont think fits the evidence but the first one does

[Nemo]

If the thumb caused the bruise on the right side of the face and the fingers the bruises on the left, this pattern can only have been produced by the killers right hand whether he attacked from the front or the rear while the victim was standing

The bruises can only have been produced by the Rippers left hand if she was already prone - the Ripper would have to be on the right side of the prone body or at her head

I always took this to the origin of why the doctor thought the Ripper may have been left handed

[chrismasonic]

your forearm is most likely to cause a bruise when applying a rear choke but if they writhe about trying to escape the bicep or the wrapping arm would cause one too...i've got two abrasions on either cheek from doing just that last night at training

[perrymason]

Hello all,

Once youve determined what he intended to do by cutting off their air...which in this case was to cause the victim to briefly.. at least... lose consciousness, then you can assess what techiques could have accomplished that task. Different from killing them via asphyxiation, he just needed them to be "pliable". Once he slits the throats, the victims are silenced for good.

I know Tom has some ideas about how this was executed, but the only evidence that could support his idea is found by the comments of Blackwell regarding how Liz was attacked....in that she "may have been cut while falling". Since for me she is the least likely Canonical, that just means to me that her killer used a different technique. And Marys killer pulled a knife on her while she was at least semi-conscious, as evidenced by her defensive wounds. But it seems fairly clear that victims 1, 2, 4 and 5 were lying down when their throats are cut.

I think scarves played a role in some killings.

Best regards all.

[chrismasonic]

a cross collar choke could also do the same job...

by holding a scarf with both hands palms down about 12 inches apart...bring one hand over the other whilst turning your wrists in towards you...you now have a triangle gap between your taught scarf and wrists...from behind bring that gap over your victims head and pull whilst bringing your elbows forward to contrict the gap...

victim akip within seconds

lower them to the floor

get your knife out

hold your victim by the face...lift it up a little to expose the neck...and go to work jack

[perrymason]

a cross collar choke could also do the same job...

by holding a scarf with both hands palms down about 12 inches apart...bring one hand over the other whilst turning your wrists in towards you...you now have a triangle gap between your taught scarf and wrists...from behind bring that gap over your victims head and pull whilst bringing your elbows forward to contrict the gap...

victim akip within seconds

lower them to the floor

get your knife out

hold your victim by the face...lift it up a little to expose the neck...and go to work jack

Add directing the jugular spray away from him by tilting the head and face,... and that seems to be a very viable suggested method.

He was only subduing with the choking, not killing....so something quick that would shut their lights out for just seconds would be fine I would think.

Cheers Chris.

[chrismasonic]

the choke technique will actually put you out for the count for a few minutes rather than seconds...

i've seen people choked out in challenge matchs at an academy i studied at in brazil,after they were out students have picked them up and carried them outside and just layed them on the street outside and they've woken up ten minutes later...

i think a such a technique was used to silence and incapacitate the woman...i imagine him lowering the victim to the ground...who knows maybe he does this so another attacker can take over with a knife whilst the choker keeps toot...maybe the knife guy engages the woman in conversation...so the choker can attack from behind...the knife guy could even grab the feet when she was out and still in the choke...and they both carry her to a good rippin' spot

i know its far more likely that the attacker worked alone...

but that 2 man plan would do the job just fine

[DVV]

...And 3 men would "do the job just finer"...