choked rather than strangled

[chrismasonic]

have you got 3 men in mind?

[DVV]

Hi Chris,
I have all Whitechapel in mind.
The great local conspiracy.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

In fact, I have 3 suspects.
JF, GH, J-G FH.
But whenever I try to send them on the same spot, at the same time, 2 of them vanish en route.

[chrismasonic]

hmmm...how does your 3 get out of marys room?

[DVV]

Remember my 3 become 1 when on the spot. And as a wild speculation I'd suggest that he used the door to get out.

Amitiés,
David

[chrismasonic]

i remember reading when they opened the door of marys room the table was blocking the door...

[DVV]

As an argument against the chimney theory, I have to say that the table wasn't blocking the door, but the door couldn't open entirely.
I will never understand this taste of poor people for narrow dwellings.

[perrymason]

The story is that McCarthy himself "forced" the door open, so I think we are talking about his forcing a locked door open, not forcing a door that was blocked by something in the rooms interior. The door was found locked, as were the windows. The real question is why would he force a door that he likely knew could be opened using the window and latch method?

One thing with the notion of choke vs strangle...we have physical evidence on some victims that points to the method used, but I dont recall ever seeing that marks on the deceased were like finger pressure marks or bruising....so is he using the scarf, or something that would leave less physical traces, like perhaps a ligature that the traces of vanish when he slices the throat over that mark?

Best regards all?

[Nemo]

Mary Nichols had what appears to be finger grip marks on her face from the hand of the Ripper - the right hand if she was standing when he seized her or possibly the left if she was already prone

Elizabeth Stride had fingerprint -like pressure marks on her shoulders/collarbone impling that she had been gripped here and manhandled to the ground. Although her scarf was pulled tight she did not appear to have been choked/strangled.

[Pinkerton]

Actually PerryMason this is the problem I have always had with a ligature like a scarf--it would be more likely to leave marks behind than a choke hold. I certainly wouldn't rule it out though, since I believe all of the victims DID have scarves.

[skypilot]

could you tell me how you know it was raining the nights of some of the murders; I've always heard it was "dry" the nights of all the murders. thanks!

[Pinkerton]

Mary Nichols had what appears to be finger grip marks on her face from the hand of the Ripper - the right hand if she was standing when he seized her or possibly the left if she was already prone

Elizabeth Stride had fingerprint -like pressure marks on her shoulders/collarbone impling that she had been gripped here and manhandled to the ground. Although her scarf was pulled tight she did not appear to have been choked/strangled.

It doesn't seem like putting the hand over someone's mouth would be effective enough against them from calling out. And Nichols was literally standing right underneath someone's window. You're certainly right though Nemo that strangulation wasn't thought to have been performed on most Ripper victims by the physicians at the time, with the exception of Nichols. However I believe that only cutting off a victims air would produce the tell tale sign of a protruding tongue on the deceased. Choking the blood is too quick to cause this if performed correctly. It also doesn't break the skin like manual strangulation with the fingers.

I definitely agree with the Introduction section of the Casebook that SOME kind of strangulation/choke was used on the victims. The idea that the throats of the first four victims being cut would have been enough to "silence them" in a crowded area like the East End seems impossible. I would like to know though what modern investigators first proposed this as the culprits M.O.

[chrismasonic]

out of our suspects...who do you think has got the choke technique?
where do you speculate he learned it?

[Nemo]

I think the desired result could be obtained by covering the mouth and nose of the victim and pressing the knife blade across her throat into her windpipe without cutting - forcing her downward and backward in the same action. When the victim was prone the knife was drawn across the throat. The victim would be in no position to scream - no need for choking or strangulation but it may still produce effects such as a protruding tongue and/or petechiae.

[LadyG]

I always imagined it was an arm around the throat from behind, jerked upward, with blade to throat immediately with free hand, severing blood vessels as well as trachea in one swipe. Even if she didn't pass out from the choke hold, the cut silenced all cries. The spray may hit under a sleeve but mainly would be faced away. The murderer would just have to release his hold, or release and step back, for the body to fall. Was it proven the shoulder and collarbone bruises on Liz were caused immediately prior to death? However, it is entirely possible a different means of immobilization was used for each-- trying to perfect his style, or just whatever was most expediant at the time.