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How did JtR see in the dark?

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  • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    The circumstances surrounding how Polly Nichols was found says it all. Here, we have two men testifying to how it was too dark to see any blood, although they both were crouching over the body of Nichols and feeling her for warmth, touching her chest, etcetera. They will have been inches away from the blood, no more than so.
    This has given rise to a belief that it was pitch dark in the street. But what is forgotten is that if the blood and wounds were hidden and no blood had pooled or streamed in such a manner as to allow for it being seen from the vantage point of the carmen, then regardless of how bright it was, they could not have seen the blood anyway!
    But wasn´t it pitch dark, then?
    No, it was decidedly not. Charles Lechmere could see the shape of the body of Nichols lying outside the stable door from across the street, some 20-25 feet away. Admittedly, he could not specify what he was looking at (or so he says) from that distance, but it only took his steeping into the middle of the street to decide that he was looking at a woman lying on the pavement.
    It wasn´t any darker than that.
    As for feeling your way along the walls, that never happened - Robert Paul was hurrying along the street since he was in a rush.

    All in all, if it had been as dark as some will have it, there would have been no prostitution at all. Why would the unfortunates go out onto the streets if the punters could not even make them out in that complete darkness?

    Good point.Approximation,the light was closer to pitch darkness than not,enough to do what he did.The slightly more important thing was he had hands-on experience enough,dealing with entrails inside the abdomen,to do it under those conditions.And he had to have or must have had 3-5 "anatomical knowledge",experience-wise or observed/studied.Although in the Nichols case,the first time he showed he was somehow trained,the things he did with the abdomen was not really purposeful in extracting organs.As Prosector said there was some kind of progression.

    ----
    Last edited by Varqm; 11-04-2018, 09:44 AM.
    Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
    M. Pacana

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    • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
      Yes, but realistically, would a killer wait in silence on the opposite side of the square?
      Anyone in the square would hear the slow tread of PC Harvey as he approached down Church Passage. Footsteps did echo down that passage, I tested that theory myself back in the early 70's.
      So if the killer was in the square I suspect he would leave on hearing footsteps approach, shortly before Harvey came into sight.
      JtR could see him coming all the way down the passage, stopping, looking around, turning, and going back the way he came.

      I wonder why Harvey was fired from the force within 9 months after this.
      Bona fide canonical and then some.

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      • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
        Yes, but realistically, would a killer wait in silence on the opposite side of the square?
        Anyone in the square would hear the slow tread of PC Harvey as he approached down Church Passage. Footsteps did echo down that passage, I tested that theory myself back in the early 70's.
        So if the killer was in the square I suspect he would leave on hearing footsteps approach, shortly before Harvey came into sight.
        For once I totally agree with you, and would add that the killer would have been able to see the outline of Harvey coming down the passage as there was another lamp I believe at the entrance to the Passage in Duke Street.

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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        • So what exit did the killer use to leave the Square?

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          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
            I think the distance across the square at that point, from the end of Church Passage, where Harvey stopped, was about 70+ ft.
            There was a lamp at the end of Church Passage but it will not cast any light far enough across the square.
            Also, as is often the case, if you stand under a lamp the glow will limit the ability of your eyes to see into the surrounding darkness.
            It's the same effect as the surrounding city lights limit your ability to see stars at night. You need to get away from ambient city lights to see any details of the night sky.
            So in effect, that lamp at the end of Church Passage would blind Harvey from seeing anyone across the square.
            This is exactly as I state in Jake and my 2006 Rip article, and during the 2007 Conf.

            Jake did some recons to help explain this. I shall see if I can find them.

            Monty




            Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

            http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

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            • Was it ever ascertained why PC Harvey was fired 9 months later?
              Bona fide canonical and then some.

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              • No, but Gavin Bromley provides some background on Harvey and Watkins in addition to an analysis of the Mitre Square Murder in Ripperologist no. 75 (January 2007).

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                • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                  No, but Gavin Bromley provides some background on Harvey and Watkins in addition to an analysis of the Mitre Square Murder in Ripperologist no. 75 (January 2007).
                  Thanks. City Beat (Part II).
                  Bona fide canonical and then some.

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                  • I'm so sorry for this omission. Neil Bell and Rob Clack provide a much more detailed background of PC Harvey in the Ripperologist no. 104 (July 2009)

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                    • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                      I'm so sorry for this omission. Neil Bell and Rob Clack provide a much more detailed background of PC Harvey in the Ripperologist no. 104 (July 2009)
                      That's a good reference also. Thanks.
                      Bona fide canonical and then some.

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                      • Originally posted by Batman View Post
                        JtR could see him coming all the way down the passage, stopping, looking around, turning, and going back the way he came.

                        I wonder why Harvey was fired from the force within 9 months after this.
                        I don't know why I get the feeling, about the the Mitre sq murder that, due to the short time JTR had that he was in the square when Harvey looked in, I feel that Harvey must have seen something but basically chose to not get involved, sounds bad doesn't it but, what if, knowing that jtr was a crazed killer, Harvey took the easy out option and just didn't fancy a tussle with this mad man. Jtr is thought by some to be reckless to the point of not caring if he was caught, I think when cornered and as a last resort, I think Jtr would have stood his ground. I just can't believe that he was not seen by one of the Policemen or even the night watchman, he took an incredible chance in Mitre sq.
                        Last edited by Rob1n; 11-04-2018, 03:32 PM. Reason: Spelling error.

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                        • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                          So what exit did the killer use to leave the Square?
                          It could only have been via Mitre Street

                          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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                          • Agreed Trevor.

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                            • Originally posted by Rob1n View Post
                              I don't know why I get the feeling, about the the Mitre sq murder that, due to the short time JTR had that he was in the square when Harvey looked in, I feel that Harvey must have seen something but basically chose to not get involved, sounds bad doesn't it but, what if, knowing that jtr was a crazed killer, Harvey took the easy out option and just didn't fancy a tussle with this mad man. Jtr is thought by some to be reckless to the point of not caring if he was caught, I think when cornered and as a last resort, I think Jtr would have stood his ground. I just can't believe that he was not seen by one of the Policemen or even the night watchman, he took an incredible chance in Mitre sq.
                              Much of what you write seems to be influenced by the time window.
                              My view is the time window is wrong.

                              If the woman seen with a man in Duke street at the end of Church Passage was not Eddowes, then the traditional time window with all its complications disappears, and is replaced by the timing of Watkins alone as he passed through the square at 1:30, then returned at 1:44.

                              Swanson wrote that Lawende did not identify the body as the woman he saw, and that the clothes of the victim were only 'similar'.
                              So I wouldn't place a whole lot of reliance on that couple being Eddowes with her killer.
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                                For once I totally agree with you, and would add that the killer would have been able to see the outline of Harvey coming down the passage as there was another lamp I believe at the entrance to the Passage in Duke Street.

                                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                                The obvious drawback with this scenario is it casts doubt on Watkins story of him passing through the square at 1:30.
                                Did he really check that corner?
                                Regards, Jon S.

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