Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection.

[MrBarnett]

Did Smith tell the hospital staff she was a prostitute?

Poll didn't stand up in court and tell the world she was a prostitute. They had to have an officer go over to the witness box to hear her whispers and tell the court what she was saying. That's how reluctant she was.

So nothing to do with the fact that for much of her adult life she suffered from throat/lung problems and eventually died from them?

Her 'lost voice' was a ruse? Perhaps that's why the Shadowmen chose her in the first place.

As for not standing up in court and admitting she was a prostitute - you're having a laugh, surely?

[MrBarnett]

More experienced than you, and that is all he has to be when we use him as a source for someone who was there. You weren't.

A very intelligent post. One of your best, at least.


So, in your eyes, anyone with more experience of Whitechapel in 1888 than me is a reliable source?

[MrBarnett]

I think this is somewhat irrelevant considering that his memoirs were written many years latter. For instance, he's hardly going to describe the area where the attack took place as a busy thoroughfare if his subsequent experience, when he got to know the area better, was that it wasn't actually that busy.

And he was clearly experienced enough to have interrogated a number of people himself.

Tom Westcott also points out that Smith was bleeding, not one blood stain was discovered in the area where she claimed the attack had taken place. (Westcott, 2014) This again raises questions about the accuracy of Smith's account.

Yes, written many years later and motivated by a desire to show himself in the best light. As are other police memoirs and from other side of the street, the ramblings of Arthur Harding.

How much blood would come from such an injury? And how quickly would it exit the body? Do you know? I don't, and I doubt Tom Wescott does either.

[MrBarnett]

Did Smith tell the hospital staff she was a prostitute?

Poll didn't stand up in court and tell the world she was a prostitute. They had to have an officer go over to the witness box to hear her whispers and tell the court what she was saying. That's how reluctant she was.

Not sure on the first point, BTW. I'll see if I can find out.

[MrBarnett]

No one says any prostitute with a client can't walk and have to do it where they meet (and therefore assaulted where they meet).

How can you possibly not even think that they may have walked around? Sadler even did this.

Tom was talking about her journey home from the Limehouse district area region. Thought you'd read his book.

[Batman]

Tom was talking about her journey home from the Limehouse district area region. Thought you'd read his book.

You said what her most obvious route was. I am saying she need not have been assaulted until nearer her place of stay.

There is nothing to confirm the assault near her home. No blood found either. No witnesses.

That is why we aren't certain where she was attacked which matches with doubting her story.

Obviously the simple fact she didn't want to explain she was a prostitute to authorities and medical staff is a good reason why she lied.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wish he'd be more precise. Which 'vagina area' is he talking about? East Vagina or West Vagina?

Are you discounting North and South Gary

[MrBarnett]

You said what her most obvious route was. I am saying she need not have been assaulted until nearer her place of stay.

There is nothing to confirm the assault near her home. No blood found either. No witnesses.

That is why we aren't certain where she was attacked which matches with doubting her story.

Obviously the simple fact she didn't want to explain she was a prostitute to authorities and medical staff is a good reason why she lied.

You've missed the point again.

What's your source for the 'simple fact'? The London Hospital register?

[MrBarnett]

Are you discounting North and South Gary

Yes. I'm a reductionist don't forget.😉

[Batman]

Yes. I'm a reductionist don't forget.😉

There is nothing wrong with reductionism it is used in science all the time but you must also consider the overarching theory that hooks up all these little reduction arguments together. You are treating them in piecemeal and not considering that we are talking about everything in conjunction together. All of the evidence not just some of it.

[MrBarnett]

There is nothing wrong with reductionism it is used in science all the time but you must also consider the overarching theory that hooks up all these little reduction arguments together. You are treating them in piecemeal and not considering that we are talking about everything in conjunction together. All of the evidence not just some of it.

Yes, but the pieces have to be for the right jigsaw. A piece of blue sky might look similar to a piece of faded denim.

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, but the pieces have to be for the right jigsaw. A piece of blue sky might look similar to a piece of faded denim.

Good metaphor, Gary.

[Batman]

Yes, but the pieces have to be for the right jigsaw. A piece of blue sky might look similar to a piece of faded denim.

Constantly on this thread, you highlight a single piece of evidence we have, indicating this is all we are putting across. Oh IF a woman was murdered next door to this woman here, then we would say both are JtR, etc.

Your reductionism ignores that there are numerous pieces of evidence being discussed for the case for them being JtR victims, not just one piece you hold up and knock down in your own strawman arguments. You are battling this legally and not logically. A defense tactic to pretend that by calling into question all the little pieces of evidence, they don't form a bigger piece of evidence, which is what this ultimately is getting at. I know what you are doing and have been since start. This is why I constantly have to introduce the bigger picture of victimology, location, time, escalations, lust murderers, lies and connections.

Speaking of which where did the hot zone get me?

It took me to Tabram and Nichols.

It took me to Smith.

It took me to a very small area of Whitechapel which is significant in the JtR case. In fact, next to the murder sites and sites of evidence dropping, this is probably the next more significant area to address.

We are before Nichols, which from an investigative standpoint is a fantastic place to be.

And in all of this, we end up with more things pointing at Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski every time we go outside his room to look at more details and come back in. Not things helping point away from him, but more things that are pointing at him.

[Sam Flynn]

Your reductionism ignores that there are numerous pieces of evidence being discussed for the case for them being JtR victims...

It strikes me that Gary, far from being a reductionist, is the one who's taking the "bigger picture" approach, bringing to bear on his appraisal of each case his knowledge of the prevailing social conditions, the geography, the facts of the murders, the victims and the people with whom they mixed.

[Abby Normal]

just a few points:

through out the series I see very little, if any, deliberate reluctance or lies of the witnesses, police, even the victims, when having to admit they were prostitutes or had previously prostituted themselves. considering the times, I actually was surprised by this.


Specifically-There is no evidence that Smith lied-at all-pure and total speculation. and put in the context of saying she did to fit a theory makes it all the more dubious.


Not only that but the nature of her injuries is consistant with the story she told but more tellingly is consistant with the type of assault that perpetrators who work in groups commit-savage beating, robbery, torture etc.


consistant even in the world of serial killers- the torture/ rape killers are often found in pairs: the hillside stranglers, Lane and Ng(sp?), the married Canadian couple.


as a matter of fact we NEVER find post mortem focused serial killers who work in groups/pairs-its a lonely and singular thing, even in the beginning of there escalation.


Im not saying the ripper couldnt have been among the gang that attacked Emma Smith, just highly doubtful.