JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis

[Scott Nelson]

Personally, I don't think JtR fled Mitre Square. I think he hid in Mitre Square and then waited for a crowd to show so he could mingle with them and watch.

Hide where? The only open door in the Square was to Kearley and Tonge's warehouse. Within minutes of the body's discovery there were policemen in the Square. It would have been impossible for the Ripper to remain outside unseen.

[Scott Nelson]

Plus, there are some who believe this "half-tipsy" broad-shoulder man then staggered off towards Mitre Square to commit another murder. Or did he rapidly sober up?

The tipsy or staggering demeanor may have been the effects of coming out of an epileptic seizure.

[Abby Normal]

I think the idea that JtR was a cop, ex-cop or working with LE should be entertained because the reasons why JtR 'couldn't' have been a PC can be dismissed because of the recent find that EARONS was an officer and the same reasons were used to dismiss EARONS could be an officer.

So I am thinking about it and maybe the book The Bank Holiday Murders had made be also re-think this possible explanation again.

ok thanks for clarifying!

The recent GSK case has made me consider this possibility.

[Batman]

so this was a cop? sager?

I think the idea that JtR was a cop, ex-cop or working with LE should be entertained because the reasons why JtR 'couldn't' have been a PC can be dismissed because of the recent find that EARONS was an officer and the same reasons were used to dismiss EARONS could be an officer.

So I am thinking about it and maybe the book The Bank Holiday Murders had made be also re-think this possible explanation again.

[Abby Normal]

Personally, I don't think JtR fled Mitre Square. I think he hid in Mitre Square and then waited for a crowd to show so he could mingle with them and watch. That would explain the time-gap. Then he headed off to GS in the direction of his home.

so this was a cop? sager?

[Batman]

City PC Witness = James Harvey? Possibly saw the man (Kosminski?) emerging from St. James Place, or coming up (north) on Duke Street, or coming towards him (east) on Little Duke Street when Harvey turned right on Little Duke Street. The timings would seem to corroborate such an event.

Snippet from Sims: That the City PC witness was only able to identify the man from his height and build. Where did this bit of information come from?

This man would appear to be unaccompanied by a woman at the time of the sighting and from the description provided by Sims, he was seen by the PC shortly after the murder.

Harvey moments before (?) went down Church Passage and heard and saw nothing. If the murder had already been committed, he probably didn't see anything in the darkness.

City Police Inspector McWilliam two weeks later wrote in a report that nobody had seen anything untold in Mitre Square. Was Harvey holding back his early sighting of a lone man emerging from the Square?

Harvey is a Jewish name, however his birth record lists his religion as C.E.

Was this his mother's creed?

Personally, I don't think JtR fled Mitre Square. I think he hid in Mitre Square and then waited for a crowd to show so he could mingle with them and watch. That would explain the time-gap. Then he headed off to GS in the direction of his home.

[Batman]

Darryl answered this on another thread, purely coincidental, but I agree with what he wrote.

https://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=457473&postcount=259

My concern is where was Parcel-man throughout all this?

Plus, there are some who believe this "half-tipsy" broad-shoulder man then staggered off towards Mitre Square to commit another murder. Or did he rapidly sober up?

He killed her because he had been seen by her attacking her in the middle of the Whitechapel murders.

Ada Wilson got stabbed twice in the throat and survived when she answered the door to a knife-wielding blotchy faced character demanding money who she had a confrontation with. He tried to murder her despite not getting what he wanted.

Piser was targetted by LE because of rumours.

LE would have taken Stride around Whitechapel at night until she IDed him again at which point they would have put plainclothed officers on him and stakeouts around his home to catch him in the act as they did with other cases.

The staggering drunk thing is probably a ruse to make them think he is weak. Maybe he likes them to try robbing him so he has an excuse to suddenly attack them. Eddowes with her hand on a suspects chest seems pretty interesting to me. Like he is allowing her to feel around for a purse/wallet.

[Wickerman]

Why don't you think Schwartz's attacker is JtR? I think it would have to be. The chances of Stride attacked twice in a few minutes by different unrelated people would be staggeringly vast.

Darryl answered this on another thread, purely coincidental, but I agree with what he wrote.

https://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=457473&postcount=259

My concern is where was Parcel-man throughout all this?

Plus, there are some who believe this "half-tipsy" broad-shoulder man then staggered off towards Mitre Square to commit another murder. Or did he rapidly sober up?

[Scott Nelson]

City PC Witness = James Harvey? Possibly saw the man (Kosminski?) emerging from St. James Place, or coming up (north) on Duke Street, or coming towards him (east) on Little Duke Street when Harvey turned right on Little Duke Street. The timings would seem to corroborate such an event.

Snippet from Sims: That the City PC witness was only able to identify the man from his height and build. Where did this bit of information come from?

This man would appear to be unaccompanied by a woman at the time of the sighting and from the description provided by Sims, he was seen by the PC shortly after the murder.

Harvey moments before (?) went down Church Passage and heard and saw nothing. If the murder had already been committed, he probably didn't see anything in the darkness.

City Police Inspector McWilliam two weeks later wrote in a report that nobody had seen anything untold in Mitre Square. Was Harvey holding back his early sighting of a lone man emerging from the Square?

Harvey is a Jewish name, however his birth record lists his religion as C.E.

Was this his mother's creed?

[Batman]

I've never been sold on this idea that the killer knew the police beats. He might have had a rough idea, sure, but there's no way he could've timed this to the exact second. Serial killers are habitual risk-takers. For many, their luck inevitably runs out. The Ripper was playing a dangerous game. Perhaps that's why he chose to take his killing indoors.

After the murder of Chapman, the police had plainclothes officers and stakeouts nearly everywhere around Whitechapel. They were almost certainly watching every major roadway, which they do on normal beats anyway, and even had stakeouts down alleys.

Within minutes of Eddowes murder, a swarm of officers from around showed up, plainclothes and not. Yet JtR somehow managed to avoid them all and even went on to avoid being spotted dumping a bloody apron on GS and it seems even had to time to do some warped poetry on the wall.

I am not sure I ascribe to the pure luck theory anymore.

Sure Nicholas was probably only murdered seconds before the first witness arrived. Chapman's murderer may have been seen by a butcher simply looking over the fence beside him when he heard a bang. Stride was seen being pushed by someone aggressive. Eddowes had LE practically all over her until minutes before she was murdered. Someone was even cleaning up in a warehouse right next to where she was murdered. Kelly's screams were apparently heard and Hutchenson may have been staring the person in the face and then down a cul-de-sac. Surely this sounds like someone playing a dangerous game, as you say. Pure luck.

However go back to the OP. Joseph James DeAngelo while worked as LE was...

- Confronted face to face by Officer McGowen and JJD shot at him. He gave a composite description.
- His face was seen at the Maggiore Murders.
- He wore a ski-mask on a bicycle while being chased by the FBI.
- Scores of witnesses saw him with a ski-mask on.

Now here is the thing. Only one stakeout ever saw him. The rest were all civilian witnesses and a chance FBI officer who was a neighbour of someone being assaulted and heard the noise and gave chase. The stakeout that saw him, was McGowen's stakeout, and he deliberately kept his quiet because he thought his suspect was listening in to them somehow. This happened again to Sacramento detective Shelby who thought maybe police radios were being listened to by their suspect who dodged all their stakeouts.

It was inside knowledge that allowed JJD to commit hundreds of crimes while being sought after. When he was fired from LE, his ability to commit crimes at such a frequency dropped off the chart. He changed his MO and moved across the State.

JtR dodged stakeouts and plainclothes officers. I think this is more than luck.

[Harry D]

I've never been sold on this idea that the killer knew the police beats. He might have had a rough idea, sure, but there's no way he could've timed this to the exact second. Serial killers are habitual risk-takers. For many, their luck inevitably runs out. The Ripper was playing a dangerous game. Perhaps that's why he chose to take his killing indoors.

[harry]

Stride encountering two unrelated persons,in a short time, need not be a rare occurance.

[Batman]

I see your point, that the descriptions appear similar. Though "pepper-and-salt" is a light colour, close to grey. Which would match the grey cloth cap.
Not the colour of choice for a killer intending to spill blood.
But also, pepper-and-salt bares no resemblance to a "dark jacket and trousers", of the previous description.

Doesn't it make you wonder what made Lawende say "he looked like a sailor", when he wasn't describing sailor's clothes?
How could he look like a sailor?

I don't think they are the same man, and neither of them was the killer, in my opinion.

I think it's possible that Schwartz description contaminated Lewendes revised description. If there is just a chronological order of these in the paper then I would have to say it looks like it could be so.

Why don't you think Schwartz's attacker is JtR? I think it would have to be. The chances of Stride attacked twice in a few minutes by different unrelated people would be staggeringly vast.

[Wickerman]

How about the man seen by Schwartz and Lewende.

"aged about 30, five feet five inches tall, fair complexion, dark hair, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, wearing a dark jacket and trousers, and a black cap with a peak.

"young, middle-height, had a small fair moustache, wearing what looked like navy serge and a deerstalker’s cap." According to later reports he was about 30 years old, 5 feet 7 or 8 inches tall and of medium build, with a fair complexion and mustache. He wore a pepper-and-salt loose jacket, a gray cloth cap with a peak, and a reddish neckerchief tied in a knot. Lawende thought he looked like a sailor.

I see your point, that the descriptions appear similar. Though "pepper-and-salt" is a light colour, close to grey. Which would match the grey cloth cap.
Not the colour of choice for a killer intending to spill blood.
But also, pepper-and-salt bares no resemblance to a "dark jacket and trousers", of the previous description.

Doesn't it make you wonder what made Lawende say "he looked like a sailor", when he wasn't describing sailor's clothes?
How could he look like a sailor?

I don't think they are the same man, and neither of them was the killer, in my opinion.

[Batman]

Is Galloway's Mr. Blotchy CID officer Sagar?

https://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Robert_Sagar