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JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis

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  • Batman
    started a topic JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis

    JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis

    Okay since the capture of the East Area Rapist/Original Night Stalker (EARONS), who was also the VR (Vasalia Ransacker) and was known as the Golden State Killer (GSK) turned out to have been LE for the VR crimes as an officer in Exeter. He was LE also for the East Area Rapes while working as LE for Auburn. All are around Sacramento.

    He was fired from LE and then continued to commit his crimes as ONS. He did these along Santa Barbara.

    He even changed his MO.

    Many doubted EARONS was LE, including myself.

    Here are some of the reasons we had...

    1) No time to do it all.
    2) Can't travel from one end of Sacramento to the other.
    3) LE had all checked out.
    4) Statistics.
    5) Would be easily recognized.

    I think some of you might see in these arguments the same ones for why JtR couldn't be LE.

    I think that will have to be revised in light of what we know now.

    I know some LE have been suspects in the literature. What about contemporary claims at the time? Was a member of LE ever fingered for the crimes?

  • Batman
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    Why not do it again after Chapman as soon as he could? If he had the inside tack on the police, what was holding him back?
    Nothing except these serial killers tend to go in cycles as identified by the psychologist Joel Norris. So JtR would be in various phases before doing it again.

    After Chapman, the press was no longer interested in a Jew because Pizer had an exculpatory alibi in the form of a police officer.

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Batman View Post
    I have my own explanation for that. He was doing exploratory work on Nichols to see how bloody he would get harvesting organs. He learned that his exsanguination had worked and what he could do. He wanted to do the full thing and did it as soon as he could by coming across Chapman.
    Why not do it again after Chapman as soon as he could? If he had the inside tack on the police, what was holding him back?

    Leave a comment:


  • Batman
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    I know, but there was barely a week between Nichols and Chapman, and escalation was already apparent.
    I have my own explanation for that. He was doing exploratory work on Nichols to see how bloody he would get harvesting organs. He learned that his exsanguination had worked and what he could do. He wanted to do the full thing and did it as soon as he could by coming across Chapman.

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Batman View Post
    In terms of timing, he is considered extremely quick compared to other serial killers
    I know, but there was barely a week between Nichols and Chapman, and escalation was already apparent.

    Leave a comment:


  • Batman
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    The increased police presence might account for the growing gaps between the murders from Chapman onwards. Would someone with inside information need to have waited as long between kills?
    In terms of timing, he is considered extremely quick compared to other serial killers. The autumn of terror captures how quick it was.

    Friday 31 August 1888
    Friday 9 November 1888

    Approx 9 weeks for 5 murders.

    Inside knowledge looks something like this -> http://www.goldenstatekiller.com/attack-list.php

    Notice the last 7 as ONS were done after he was fired. 2 per year and then a 5 year gap.

    A graph just drops like a cliff after being fired, but he turns to homicides exclusively and the crimes a lot worse (if they weren't bad enough already).

    He was doing about 2 attacks per month on average, which isn't far off what JtR was doing with the C5.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Batman View Post
    It's less about the beat walkers and more about the actual traps set for him, including plainclothes, stakeouts, and bait.
    The increased police presence might account for the growing gaps between the murders from Chapman onwards. Would someone with inside information need to have waited as long between kills?

    Leave a comment:


  • Batman
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    They worked shifts, and wouldn't all have been deployed at once. Those that were would have been distributed throughout H Division, and not all of them would have been walking the beat.
    It's less about the beat walkers and more about the actual traps set for him, including plainclothes, stakeouts, and bait.

    Also, investigators had obviously figured out that JtR was targetting women without their doss money and would have been watching out for these individuals the most, especially if they met with a man.

    Around the time of Eddowes murder, James Blenkinsop, nightwatchman overseeing roadworks in St James Place, claimed a respectably dressed man approached him, asking, "Have you seen a man and woman go through here?" Blenkinsop said he had seen some people pass, but that he had not paid any attention to them.

    I would think that man a plainclothed detective. It is unknown if he is asking this before or after the murder but happens around that time.

    If before, then this may lead credence to the view that Eddowes might have been a 'nose'... and she lost hers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Batman View Post
    Did they have the kind of organized trappings the Ripper got? I don't think so.

    500 officers.

    https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...personnel.html

    200+ named there and 300 to go.
    They worked shifts, and wouldn't all have been deployed at once. Those that were would have been distributed throughout H Division, and not all of them would have been walking the beat.

    Leave a comment:


  • Batman
    replied
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post
    And what about the other unsolved murders that happened during this period? Did they require a killer with inside knowledge of the police, or did the same factors that contributed to the Ripper's success also apply to them?
    Did they have the kind of organized trappings the Ripper got? I don't think so.

    500 officers.

    https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...personnel.html

    200+ named there and 300 to go.

    Leave a comment:


  • Harry D
    replied
    And what about the other unsolved murders that happened during this period? Did they require a killer with inside knowledge of the police, or did the same factors that contributed to the Ripper's success also apply to them?

    Leave a comment:


  • Batman
    replied
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post
    With respect, I haven't seen a convincing argument yet that the killer was fuzz. How did he remain one step ahead of the police? Mostly luck, opportunism, and a police force that were unequipped for the job. The killer needn't be a police officer to have a rough idea of their movements, particularly as patrols were not to the exact minute and any miscalculation could prove fatal.
    Clothed policemen, even reversing their beat, could be easily avoided by learning how to avoid them from prior dealings with unfortunates in the same areas. So experience could do that.

    However, dodging plainclothes and stakeouts and the public and bait is a different thing and these JtR setups that he avoided suggests inside knowledge.

    The area around Mitre Square was swarming with officers both clothed and plainclothes.

    Also looking closely at officers and their beats for each of the murders raises some interesting questions, many of which get answered by... oh he may have not been attentive or he may have not been doing his job properly at the time or just assuming he was at the other end of his beat because he didn't respond to the cries, etc.
    Last edited by Batman; 11-05-2018, 04:34 AM.

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  • Harry D
    replied
    With respect, I haven't seen a convincing argument yet that the killer was fuzz. How did he remain one step ahead of the police? Mostly luck, opportunism, and a police force that were unequipped for the job. The killer needn't be a police officer to have a rough idea of their movements, particularly as patrols were not to the exact minute and any miscalculation could prove fatal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Batman
    replied
    When faced with a big essay on something like this, I just scoot down to the conclusion section and read that first and then if I want to know more, go into the main body of text with the facts that led to the conclusion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Observer
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    I don't believe witness statements are taken as 'the gospel truth' by the police, neither should we take them as 'the gospel truth'.
    It is though a stated record of what took place, and as such is accepted unless evidence surfaces to the contrary.
    The fact PC Smith did not mention seeing Schwartz is not evidence Schwartz was not there. Not including a detail is deemed negative evidence, and negative evidence is not evidence of anything.
    I wasn't suggesting the police at the time took witness statement as gospel. Some who post here do though, and then they'll use the contradictory timings of certain witlessness to bolster a conspiracy theory. Unless witnesses have access to a reliable timepiece I'd say we take their timings with a certain caution. As i said, some on here adhere to the timings of witnesses as if they were written in stone. A question was asked why PC Smith never saw Schwartz, I was then directed to a dissertation which refuted Smith's testimony the complexity of which has to be seen to be believed. The thing is it doesn't doesn't matter what time Smith passed up Berner Street, the simple reason he did not spot Schwartz is down to the simple fact that he was not in the street when Stride was attacked.

    Leave a comment:

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