Could Jack have been a rogue copper?

[AdamWalsh]

First not all the bodies were found by police officers and in the cases where they were do you have any evidence to suggest that the officer was the perp ? If not, why raise the question. In the cases where an officer was the first to find the body, we know who the officer was. Please provide whatever evidence you have that would suggest they/he were JtR.

jbarntt

ok, no evidence, just a thought. im not legally bound to only type the truth here.

[jbarntt]

Who found the bodies ?

Hi Adam,

Of the canonical five victims, only one was first found by a police officer: Catherine Eddowes was found by PC Watkins, a City officer, I believe.

Mary Ann Nichols was found by Charles Cross, who got his friend Robt. Paul. A policeman was then called for. Cross and Paul were laborers/tradesmen.

Annie Chapman was found by a man of similar background, John Davis.

Liz Stride was was found by Louis Diemschutz, a jeweler.

Mary Kelly was found by Th. Bowyer, an employee of her landlord, John McCarthy whom Bowyer went to with the news. McCarthy notified the police.

I found all this on this very website w/o any difficulty. As far as I can tell from your posts, you must suspect PC Watkins as a possible suspect. Evidence please.

jbarntt

[jbarntt]

ok, no evidence, just a thought. im not legally bound to only type the truth here.

True, but if you feel free to type untruth's, why should anyone pay you any attention ? Perhaps before posting it might be advisable to do a basic fact check re: what you are posting has any possible basis in fact.

jbarntt

[John Casey]

good lord!

I posed a hypothetical question, why do some people here seem so quick to attack anything that doesnt fit into their cosy view of the case? I thought this was meant to be fun....

That aside, it seems to me that Jack was somebody who the women were comfortable with, which would suggest, to me anyhow, he COULD HAVE been a regular client, a police officer, a known night watchman......any number of things really....of course I have no evidence that he was any of these things, just pure speculation and conjecture.

PAX

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I posed a hypothetical question, why do some people here seem so quick to attack anything that doesnt fit into their cosy view of the case? I thought this was meant to be fun...

John, you obviously haven't attended message boards before - I tell you, Casebook debates like this one are bleak in comparison to many others out there.

That aside, it seems to me that Jack was somebody who the women were comfortable with, which would suggest, to me anyhow, he COULD HAVE been a regular client, a police officer, a known night watchman......any number of things really....of course I have no evidence that he was any of these things, just pure speculation and conjecture.

Well, I can understand the idea about a copper being the killer, and I believe this also was suggested by some letter writers and members of the general public at the time. Policemen and authority figures have always been quickly accused.
I see several problems with this, though, since PC:s were heavily restricted by the fact that they needed to follow their beat.
Personally, I think the same knowledge of the area and other circumstances can be explained also with other categories of susoect, and I believe many knew the police beats. In those days of patroling PC:s, people knew the constables in the area quite well and it was much more of a personal relationship with the people who lived in the district than it is today. So for those reasons I find it less likely.

All the best

[jbarntt]

Hi John,

I posed a hypothetical question, why do some people here seem so quick to attack anything that doesnt fit into their cosy view of the case? I thought this was meant to be fun....

That aside, it seems to me that Jack was somebody who the women were comfortable with, which would suggest, to me anyhow, he COULD HAVE been a regular client, a police officer, a known night watchman......any number of things really....of course I have no evidence that he was any of these things, just pure speculation and conjecture.

PAX

You posed a hypothetical question which has no basis in the evidence. It is not a question of anyone's "cosy" view.

As to your second point, of course JtR could have been a "regular client, a police officer, a known night watchman", or a father, an uncle, a priest, a soldier, a sailor, a tinker or a midwife.

"of course I have no evidence that he was any of these things, just pure speculation and conjecture."

So what's the point ? Shouldn't the discussion be grounded in the facts at hand ? Maybe JtR was a UFO alien from Arcturus 9.

jbarntt

[Suzi]

Hi Glenn-
I agree....'rucks' like this are commonplace...basically most of us know how to roll with the punches!!

jbarntt- What was that all about?? Look- Policemen were obviously in, around and about -legion at this period- but OK it's a pretty illusion to go with PC Ripper but without any facts we can go...'er...nowhere!

Now, if we were to maybe look at a 'friend' of a policeman we may get somewhere (joke!) ho hum.........

Come on! does anyone really have a 'COSY' view of the case???- If they do that's seriously disturbing!!

As Glenn says the PC's BEAT was sacrosanct and if they moved without of those bounds things got a tad sticky, and took a bit of explaining- so sadly I feel PC Ripper may be out of the picture...unless we go into off duty PC's....another train of thought!

I cannot be swayed from the idea that whoever did one/ another or all of the murders (unlikely in my mind the same hand for all of them) was someone who could disappear into the crowd shall we say,...someone who through their familiarity became invisible and was more than likely amongst the crowds swirling around the murder site,as soon as the alarm was raised!!
Now where were we..........

Suzi

[AdamWalsh]

Hi Adam,

Of the canonical five victims, only one was first found by a police officer: Catherine Eddowes was found by PC Watkins, a City officer, I believe.

Mary Ann Nichols was found by Charles Cross, who got his friend Robt. Paul. A policeman was then called for. Cross and Paul were laborers/tradesmen.

Annie Chapman was found by a man of similar background, John Davis.

Liz Stride was was found by Louis Diemschutz, a jeweler.

Mary Kelly was found by Th. Bowyer, an employee of her landlord, John McCarthy whom Bowyer went to with the news. McCarthy notified the police.

I found all this on this very website w/o any difficulty. As far as I can tell from your posts, you must suspect PC Watkins as a possible suspect. Evidence please.

jbarntt

"Evidence please" - christ you people on this site are serious, Im talking about thoughts, not evidence! I didnt say all bodies were found by Policemen BUT if the killer was dressed as a policeman he mightve been able to explain his way out of it, because the bodies were found by regular people doesnt mean this isnt the case.

[jbarntt]

John, you obviously haven't attended message boards before - I tell you, Casebook debates like this one are bleak in comparison to many others out there.



Well, I can understand the idea about a copper being the killer, and I believe this also was suggested by some letter writers and members of the general public at the time. Policemen and authority figures have always been quickly accused.
I see several problems with this, though, since PC:s were heavily restricted by the fact that they needed to follow their beat.
Personally, I think the same knowledge of the area and other circumstances can be explained also with other categories of susoect, and I believe many knew the police beats. In those days of patroling PC:s, people knew the constables in the area quite well and it was much more of a personal relationship with the people who lived in the district than it is today. So for those reasons I find it less likely.

All the best

I'm a bit confused. John suggested that a policeman who was first on the scene might well be JtR. As I have posted, this would most likely be PC Watkins. Why all the dancing around ?

Is Watkins a reasonable suspect or not ? It matters not that some in 1888 might have thought a copper was the fellow, nor does it matter that you can think that a copper might have been the killer. I can imagine that too, but there is no evidence for it.

It truly amazes me the degree to which totally unfounded speculation is taken seriously on this website.

jbarntt

[Suzi]

"Evidence please" - christ you people on this site are serious, Im talking about thoughts, not evidence! I didnt say all bodies were found by Policemen BUT if the killer was dressed as a policeman he mightve been able to explain his way out of it, because the bodies were found by regular people doesnt mean this isnt the case.

We are serious...that's the point!!! OK the concept of someone 'dressed' as a policeman is an acceptable theory... mind you where do you dump your kit before disappearing into the locale?? Blimey I saw that cove dressed as a cooper just now etc etc Hmmmmm

[Suzi]

jbarntt-
Check out the scolarly work done on PC Watkins and his beat on Casebook and editions of Ripperologist for facts

[jbarntt]

We are serious...that's the point!!! OK the concept of someone 'dressed' as a policeman is an acceptable theory... mind you where do you dump your kit before disappearing into the locale?? Blimey I saw that cove dressed as a cooper just now etc etc Hmmmmm

The idea that JtR dressed as a cop is unfounded. Even if one discounts the witnesses, such as Lawende, Schwartz, etc., what evidence suggests that the perp dressed as a cop ? None would be the correct answer. Sure he may have dressed as a cop, he may have dressed as an Anglican priest, or he may have dressed as a Klingon.

The fact is that we don't know how he dressed, aside from a few witnesses, who all described his dress as pretty ordinary for the time and place. Frankly, I'll take the view of the imperfect witnesses over some latter day theory that the perp was dressed as a policeman, for which there is no evidence.

jbarntt

[Suzi]

Hi jbarntt
Now the 'PERP' to which you refer- more than likely dressed in the way of the common man rather than in the manner described by Hutchinson..Anyone wearing something worth 'having away' would have had that removed - when just two or three steps into Dorset Street...or anywhere else for that matter in the area!!

[jbarntt]

Hi Suzi,

I've edited your post to what I think is the part re: me. If I have made a mistake, let me know.

jbarntt- What was that all about?? Look- Policemen were obviously in, around and about -legion at this period- but OK it's a pretty illusion to go with PC Ripper but without any facts we can go...'er...nowhere!

Suzi

I'm not sure I understand you. Indeed police officers were all over the place, but I don't understand your comment about a "PC Ripper". I take "PC" to mean "Police Constable", but that makes no sense in your post, so I think I am not understanding you.

Clarify your post for me and I'll be happy to respond.

Best,

jbarntt

[Suzi]

Oooooooooh Gawd jbarntt!!

'PC' Ripper was my term used to describe the 'concept' of JTR being a policeman...nothing more nothing less!!

At the end of the day- it's a tantalising concept- but to be honest we have nothing to go on...do we!!

BTW-

No -not understanding is a double negative...you didn't write anything on a wall in Goulston St did you?