An historical pattern

[MrBarnett]

Hey Gary,

I believe (don't quote me yet) the underground trains stopped at either 12 or 1 a.m. I posted it somewhere and have forgotten the exact time.

By the way, after looking at the map on that website, the station I am talking about is to the right and down a bit from your arrow.

Hi Jerry,

The arrow was already there. That Shoreditch station was on the line that came out of Broad Street, the one you mention, which was closer to Spitalfields, seems to have been on the Liverpool Street Line.

The point, though, as you say, is that commuter trains did not run in the small hours when most of the WM took place.

Do you know if Bradshaws Guides can be found online?


Gary

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,

This interesting site has some info on Shoreditch station and others.

It includes some early timetables (not from 1888 unfortunately, but unless there was a mass cutting of the services it doesn't seem that local passenger trains ran throughout the night).

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/shoreditch/index.shtml

Gary

Hey Gary,

I believe (don't quote me yet) the underground trains stopped at either 12 or 1 a.m. I posted it somewhere and have forgotten the exact time.

By the way, after looking at the map on that website, the station I am talking about is to the right and down a bit from the blue arrow.

[MrBarnett]

Shoreditch Station for these two murders was closer or even Bishopsgate [Liverpool Street Station].

Hi Jerry,

This interesting site has some info on Shoreditch station and others.

It includes some early timetables (not from 1888 unfortunately, but unless there was a mass cutting of the services it doesn't seem that local passenger trains ran throughout the night).

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/shoreditch/index.shtml

Gary

[jerryd]

I'm not sure about trains providing an escape route....Dorset Street is probably 600yards or more from Aldgate East, and Hanbury St must be half a mile from it, and St Mary's Station. If the killer could get that far without being noticed, I'd say he'd already escaped.

Shoreditch Station for these two murders was closer or even Bishopsgate [Liverpool Street Station].

[Aldebaran]

On the night of the Double Event, doesn't it make sense that the killer would be headed west, in the direction of home? The site of the murder of Liz Stride wasn't far from Commercial Road, which merged into Whitechapel Road, leading west. I am starting to lean toward this not being a killer who just happened to show up in the places that he did by serendipity, but I have to think about that some more. Regardless, for whatever reason the Double Event occurred, logic dictates the Ripper would be headed in the direction of his own lodgings. It was growing late. After all, Catherine Eddowes had just been released from jail at 1 am.

[Joshua Rogan]

I'd be very interested in this too, Jerry. I remember one of the maps in the CSI Whitechapel book demonstrates how close the murder sites were to railway stations, which I thought might be relevant.

It depends on your definition of 'close'. Whitechapel is ringed with railways, overground and underground, and I don't think it's physically possible to be more than 800yards from one station or another. So it's no surprise that railways and stations are 'close' to some of the murder sites. But the actual distances range from France's Coles and the Pinching St Torso (found under railway arches), Buck's Row (almost over the cutting of Whitechapel Station, although maybe 200yds from the entrance on the High St) to Miller's Court (1/3 mile from Aldgate E, Liverpool St and Bishopsgate Stations).
None of which rules out a connection to the railways somehow (a commuter killer could have chosen the area for it's handy transport links, for example), but that wouldn't help a local killer. The railway policeman is an intriguing theory, but would each railway company have had it's own separate police force?

[kjab3112]

I've done some research on it in the past, kjab. I'll see if I can dig up the threads I posted stuff in. You would benefit from Bernard Brown's dissertation on the matter as I suggested in my previous post.

I must have been writing while you posted. I see you mentioned the same thing. lol

Thanks, interesting reading, hadn't considered the ventilation shafts before

[Joshua Rogan]

My major incident training included routes of ingress and egress. Pierre's map has triggered a thought, not one of the canonical five was more than five minutes walk from one of the (then new) District and Hammersmith train stations. These would have offered escape routes if open at the relevant times! Does anyone know about historic London Transport regional operations?

I'm not sure about trains providing an escape route....Dorset Street is probably 600yards or more from Aldgate East, and Hanbury St must be half a mile from it, and St Mary's Station. If the killer could get that far without being noticed, I'd say he'd already escaped.

[John G]

My major incident training included routes of ingress and egress. Pierre's map has triggered a thought, not one of the canonical five was more than five minutes walk from one of the (then new) District and Hammersmith train stations. These would have offered escape routes if open at the relevant times! Does anyone know about historic London Transport regional operations?

Yes, this is a good point and it's something I've also previously considered.

[John G]

I've done some research on it in the past, kjab. I'll see if I can dig up the threads I posted stuff in. You would benefit from Bernard Brown's dissertation on the matter as I suggested in my previous post.

I must have been writing while you posted. I see you mentioned the same thing. lol

I'd be very interested in this too, Jerry. I remember one of the maps in the CSI Whitechapel book demonstrates how close the murder sites were to railway stations, which I thought might be relevant.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good evening kjab3112 and welcome to Casebook,

My major incident training included routes of ingress and egress. Pierre's map has triggered a thought, not one of the canonical five was more than five minutes walk from one of the (then new) District and Hammersmith train stations. These would have offered escape routes if open at the relevant times! Does anyone know about historic London Transport regional operations?

There were railroads, undergrounds, trams, in the area. There was a railroad which had a stop right at Buck's Row, the Whitechapel station on this map. The East London Railway was fully functioning in 1888 for passengers and freight. I think the green line is the underground.



This map showed where Montague Druitt's sister and husband lived at the red square, and Montie lived towards the arrow. So we've sort of double-jacked ole Pierre there, but yes I find Pierre's map thought provoking too.

Roy

[jerryd]

My major incident training included routes of ingress and egress. Pierre's map has triggered a thought, not one of the canonical five was more than five minutes walk from one of the (then new) District and Hammersmith train stations. These would have offered escape routes if open at the relevant times! Does anyone know about historic London Transport regional operations?

I've done some research on it in the past, kjab. I'll see if I can dig up the threads I posted stuff in. You would benefit from Bernard Brown's dissertation on the matter as I suggested in my previous post.

I must have been writing while you posted. I see you mentioned the same thing. lol

[jerryd]

Hi,

I enjoyed reading the suggestion about the strange astronomical pattern.

Polly Nichols was the only victim found 15 minutes walk from a police station.

All the other victims were found 5-10 minutes from a police station - or two.

Regards, Pierre

The biggest problem with the idea Pierre is the "city" victim, Eddowes. A met cop found in city territory, presuming he was in uniform, would have a difficult explanation. If he was off shift and out of uniform, maybe.

There was an underground railway station close to every murder site, though. Was your suspect a railway cop, by chance? I've personally always liked Bernie Brown's writings on the subject!

[kjab3112]

My major incident training included routes of ingress and egress. Pierre's map has triggered a thought, not one of the canonical five was more than five minutes walk from one of the (then new) District and Hammersmith train stations. These would have offered escape routes if open at the relevant times! Does anyone know about historic London Transport regional operations?

[kjab3112]

Closest police station to Durward street: Bethnal Green, one mile away to the north. Bow Road is about 2 miles further East down Whitechapel Road (A11). These are tiny distances in London terms (Monty may even have knowledge of some former stations even closer)