An historical pattern

[Aldebaran]

The first part of this video is quite interesting. I agree that the killer spread out the scenes of his crimes at all points of the compass. As I tried to point out in another thread, which this one effectively highjacked, you could virtually connect the points with a straight line, navigating by the heavens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IrqtT6K8YY

[John G]

It depends on your definition of 'close'. Whitechapel is ringed with railways, overground and underground, and I don't think it's physically possible to be more than 800yards from one station or another. So it's no surprise that railways and stations are 'close' to some of the murder sites. But the actual distances range from France's Coles and the Pinching St Torso (found under railway arches), Buck's Row (almost over the cutting of Whitechapel Station, although maybe 200yds from the entrance on the High St) to Miller's Court (1/3 mile from Aldgate E, Liverpool St and Bishopsgate Stations).
None of which rules out a connection to the railways somehow (a commuter killer could have chosen the area for it's handy transport links, for example), but that wouldn't help a local killer. The railway policeman is an intriguing theory, but would each railway company have had it's own separate police force?

Thanks Joshua, some very good points. It makes sense that a commuter killer would be far more likely to take advantage of the railway links, however, I don't personally see JtR as a commuter killer: if he were, then surely he would have extended his target area over a much wider a read, particularly when the Met flooded Whitechapel with extra officers.

[David Orsam]

No, David, it is not one of those. It is you that do not understand.

I think I'm able to decipher the sentence: "I have no knowledge at all about those "fixed points"." without any difficulty.

If it's all too embarrassing for you then don't worry about it.

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

I do remember that. I was giving Pierre my personal opinion because he asked what hypotheses would there be for the killer to leave immediately after a murder. We were discussing railway stations at the time. I said because I believe he lived outside of Whitechapel.

Hi Jerry

No problem, just passing on info, which can easily be forgotten.

Personally I do not see the use of the tunnels on foot as viable means of escape.

Firstly if the ventilation shafts were used, a as a means of entry to the track, which has been discussed in the past, there is the problem of the drop to the tracks for escape.
A secondary point would be that they would be, if not covered with soot, at least heavily soiled with it when they reached their point of exit.

In addition I wonder if maintenance of the early underground was carried out in 1888 at night as it is now. Daytime maintenance on those line not being practical.

Of course if maintenance was carried on after the closure of the line it could make escape more difficult in that the person may be seen by the crews.
Of course it may also have allowed someone to escape notice of dirty clothes if he were seen as one amongst many.
Does anyone know the answer to this question of when maintenance was undertaken in 1888?

That of course mainly applies to the underground lines. Not the non underground lines in the area.
The possible use of the railways is certainly something I have looked at in the past..

Best wishes


steve

[jerryd]

Jerry

from what Pierre has told us before he believes, or at least did, that the killer had accommodation near Charing Cross station and at an undisclosed address in Whitechapel during the killings.

In addition, his person was not a member of the London police forces in 1888 if I understand him correctly.

Steve

Hi Steve,

I do remember that. I was giving Pierre my personal opinion because he asked what hypotheses would there be for the killer to leave immediately after a murder. We were discussing railway stations at the time. I said because I believe he lived outside of Whitechapel.

[Pierre]

Funny that because on 1 January of this year, in 'The Profession of Jack the Ripper' thread, #282, you reproduced an article originally posted by Craig which you said you found 'interesting' because it 'introduced a number of new ideas for me'. That article contained quite a few mentions of fixed points, including this passage:

"Charles Dickens's Encyclopędia of London for 1888/1889 lists all the fixed points in the East End. Martha TABRAM had been found only yards away from a fixed point at Commercial Street at the junction with Thrawl Street, while a fixed point existed outside Whitechapel Station just the other side of the railway line where Polly NICHOLLS was found. Annie CHAPMAN was found a few yards away from another fixed point in Hanbury Street, at the junction with Deal Street, Mile End New Town.

The "double event" took place early on 30th September. At 1 a.m. Elizabeth STRIDE's body was found in Dutfield's Yard, Berner Street (now Henriques Street), once again just minutes away from a fixed point in Commercial Road, at the junction with Christian Street. Looking at the present day map, it would appear that the murder scene is some distance from the nearest underground station. However, there was at that time a Metropolitan District Railway Station situated on the south side of Whitechapel Road known as St. Mary's. It wasn't closed until 1938. By travelling north along the courts and alleys the Ripper could easily have made good his escape below ground. Less than one hour later Catherine EDDOWES body was found in Mitre Square. This was a change of pattern, as it lay within the City Police area. Just a few minutes away was Aldgate Station, which explains how Jack arrived undetected underground at Mitre Square from St. Mary's Station."

Is it that you have a very bad memory do you think or do you just not read things properly?

No, David, it is not one of those. It is you that do not understand.

[Elamarna]

My guess is the killer lived outside of Whitechapel as being the reason.

Jerry

from what Pierre has told us before he believes, or at least did, that the killer had accommodation near Charing Cross station and at an undisclosed address in Whitechapel during the killings.

In addition, his person was not a member of the London police forces in 1888 if I understand him correctly.

Steve

[David Orsam]

I have no knowledge at all about those "fixed points".

Funny that because on 1 January of this year, in 'The Profession of Jack the Ripper' thread, #282, you reproduced an article originally posted by Craig which you said you found 'interesting' because it 'introduced a number of new ideas for me'. That article contained quite a few mentions of fixed points, including this passage:

"Charles Dickens's Encyclopędia of London for 1888/1889 lists all the fixed points in the East End. Martha TABRAM had been found only yards away from a fixed point at Commercial Street at the junction with Thrawl Street, while a fixed point existed outside Whitechapel Station just the other side of the railway line where Polly NICHOLLS was found. Annie CHAPMAN was found a few yards away from another fixed point in Hanbury Street, at the junction with Deal Street, Mile End New Town.

The "double event" took place early on 30th September. At 1 a.m. Elizabeth STRIDE's body was found in Dutfield's Yard, Berner Street (now Henriques Street), once again just minutes away from a fixed point in Commercial Road, at the junction with Christian Street. Looking at the present day map, it would appear that the murder scene is some distance from the nearest underground station. However, there was at that time a Metropolitan District Railway Station situated on the south side of Whitechapel Road known as St. Mary's. It wasn't closed until 1938. By travelling north along the courts and alleys the Ripper could easily have made good his escape below ground. Less than one hour later Catherine EDDOWES body was found in Mitre Square. This was a change of pattern, as it lay within the City Police area. Just a few minutes away was Aldgate Station, which explains how Jack arrived undetected underground at Mitre Square from St. Mary's Station."

Is it that you have a very bad memory do you think or do you just not read things properly?

[Pierre]

Hopefully Bridewell won't mind me posting an old post of his. His source is Dicken's Dictionary of London 1888. He only posted the fixed points in Whitechapel. I did notice, though, "A" division had a fixed point at the Bridge Street Rail Station which is exactly where the underground tunnel I've mentioned before led to the Whitehall worksite.

"The under-mentioned places are appointed as fixed points where a police constable is to be permanently stationed from 9pm to 1am. In the event of any person springing a rattle, or persistently ringing a bell in the street or in an area, the police will at once proceed to the spot and render assistance.

H or Whitechapel Division

Ben Jonson-rd and White Horse-st, Stepney, junction of
Brick-la and Bethnal-green-rd, junction of
Christian-st and Commercial-rd, end of
Church-st, Wapping
Columbia-rd, Bethnal Gn, corner of Hassard-st
Commercial-rd-east, corner of Bromehead-st
Commercial-st, Spitalfields, corner of Thrawl-st
Flower and Dean-st and Brick-la, Spitalfields, end of
George-yd, Hight-st, Whitechapel, end of
G.E. Ry., High-st, Shoreditch, front of
Great Garden-st and Whitechapel-rd, opposite end of
Hanbury-st, cor of Deal-st, Mile End New Town
Hare-alley, High-st, Shoreditch, end of
Hermitage-br, Wapping
Leman-st, Commercial-st and Hight-st, Whitechapel, junc of
New Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
Old Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
Ship-alley & St George's-st-east, south end of
Shoreditch Church
Spencer-st and Watney-st, St. Georges East, corner of
Spitalfields Church
Stepney ry-stn, Commercial-rd-ea
Upper East Smithfield, principal entrance London Docks
Warner-pl and Hackney-rd, cor of
Wells-st, Whitechapel, opposite Sailors' Home,
Whitechapel Church
White Horse-la and Mile End-rd, junction of

*A constable is stationed at each of these points from 3pm to 7am."

Thanks a lot, Jerry!

[jerryd]

I have no knowledge at all about those "fixed points".

Could you perhaps enlighten me a bit more as to what the addresses were for those, or perhaps you could recommend a source?

Regards, Pierre

Hopefully Bridewell won't mind me posting an old post of his. His source is Dicken's Dictionary of London 1888. He only posted the fixed points in Whitechapel. I did notice, though, "A" division had a fixed point at the Bridge Street Rail Station which is exactly where the underground tunnel I've mentioned before led to the Whitehall worksite.

"The under-mentioned places are appointed as fixed points where a police constable is to be permanently stationed from 9pm to 1am. In the event of any person springing a rattle, or persistently ringing a bell in the street or in an area, the police will at once proceed to the spot and render assistance.

H or Whitechapel Division

Ben Jonson-rd and White Horse-st, Stepney, junction of
Brick-la and Bethnal-green-rd, junction of
Christian-st and Commercial-rd, end of
Church-st, Wapping
Columbia-rd, Bethnal Gn, corner of Hassard-st
Commercial-rd-east, corner of Bromehead-st
Commercial-st, Spitalfields, corner of Thrawl-st
Flower and Dean-st and Brick-la, Spitalfields, end of
George-yd, Hight-st, Whitechapel, end of
G.E. Ry., High-st, Shoreditch, front of
Great Garden-st and Whitechapel-rd, opposite end of
Hanbury-st, cor of Deal-st, Mile End New Town
Hare-alley, High-st, Shoreditch, end of
Hermitage-br, Wapping
Leman-st, Commercial-st and Hight-st, Whitechapel, junc of
New Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
Old Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
Ship-alley & St George's-st-east, south end of
Shoreditch Church
Spencer-st and Watney-st, St. Georges East, corner of
Spitalfields Church
Stepney ry-stn, Commercial-rd-ea
Upper East Smithfield, principal entrance London Docks
Warner-pl and Hackney-rd, cor of
Wells-st, Whitechapel, opposite Sailors' Home,
Whitechapel Church
White Horse-la and Mile End-rd, junction of

*A constable is stationed at each of these points from 3pm to 7am."

[jerryd]

Jerry,

Why would it have been necessary for the killer to disappear from Whitechapel directly after the murders?

Are there any hypotheses about that?

Regards, Pierre

My guess is the killer lived outside of Whitechapel as being the reason.

[Pierre]

They were also murdered near police "fixed points", which narrows down the police aspect you elude to even closer to each murder site than the police stations.

I have no knowledge at all about those "fixed points".

Could you perhaps enlighten me a bit more as to what the addresses were for those, or perhaps you could recommend a source?

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

Shoreditch Station for these two murders was closer or even Bishopsgate [Liverpool Street Station].

Jerry,

Why would it have been necessary for the killer to disappear from Whitechapel directly after the murders?

Are there any hypotheses about that?

Regards, Pierre

[jerryd]

Hi Roy,

Thanks. And it is an historical fact that the killings were done close to a police station.

Geographically mapping the abode of a serial killer has the disadvantage of not knowing where the adress was. There is just likelyhood as a statistical measure. That is not bad but there is always uncertainty included and nothing can actually be known with 100 percent certainty.

In this case, at least we know where the police stations were situated. So one may think what one wants about the hypothesis of the pattern, but at least it is built on known data.

Regards, Pierre

They were also murdered near police "fixed points", which narrows down the police aspect you elude to even closer to each murder site than the police stations.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=jerryd;388693]

I'm sorry Pierre. I might have assumed too much. In your original post you highlighted two Met police stations in relation to the murders. You have stated your suspect is a cop, so I was assuming since you didn't highlight Bishopsgate police station your suspect was subject to the Metropolitan Police.

No problem, Jerry. The fault is all mine so I am the one who is sorry.

But nothing lasts forever.

Regards, Pierre