GSG because of Schwartz?

[lynn cates]

rum job

Hello Michael. Thanks.

It does, indeed. I tried to see all that at one time. Gave it up as a rum job.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

We know that the cloth is the link to the Mitre Square murder, and we might have a link to the Berner Street murder with the writing, but does that mean definitively that they both were committed by the same person? Could the murderer in Mitre have been attempting to distance himself from Berner Street...

Without being the murderer in both instances, how did he necessarily know about the Berner St. murder when much of the police didn't even know - especially details like the exact location and the anarchists club?

[Abby Normal]

If JtR was interrupted by Schwartz and made the racial slur 'Lipski' would this not explain the second anti-semetic statement, the GSG, as a comment about Schwartz?

Basically JtR is saying in the GSG that Jews (like Schwartz) are ignorant and to blame.

Hi Batman
could be. But im not sure specifically about being "ignorant". I think he was basically pissed off by being interrupted by so many jews that night so wrote the GSG to blame them (send police/public in their direction).

[Barnaby]

Just had an interesting thought on this that probably won't stand up to scrutiny (I don't believe it!) but here goes:

Suppose Jack is a local who did not kill Liz Stride. On his way back from murdering Eddowes he hears the commotion associated with the Stride murder and is ticked off that he is being blamed for it. The message is a commentary on the fact that the murder occurred right next to a Jewish social club and yet "Jack the Ripper" did it (i.e., the police are searching for him - innocent of this crime - when the killer was a Jew).

[lynn cates]

early

Hello Barnaby.

"Suppose Jack is a local who did not kill Liz Stride. On his way back from murdering Eddowes he hears the commotion associated with the Stride murder and is ticked off that he is being blamed for it."

At that early time, how would he have know that HE was being blamed for it?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

it would be reasonable to assume that Schwartz had run off to find the nearest policeman.

In that case would he not have run back towards Commercial Street where he was more likely to find one?

[Michael W Richards]

It makes everything more implausible. It's good in a Dickensian way, I guess.

Mike

In fact it would make perfect sense if it was a slight...just as it is worded. It states that the Jews will NOT be blamed for something on a night when Jews were seeking NOT to be blamed for Strides death. The fact that it so easily fits in with the nights events seems to be overlooked by many.

Of course it could have been written by someone other than the killer(s) of that Double Event night too. Someone who suspected foul play on Berner Street....at an anarchists club.

Cheers

[Batman]

It seems to me all together very simple and parsimonous to just say JtR did the graffiti because a Jew disturbed him with Stride. We have evidence that whoever attacked Stride called a Jewish person the racial slur 'Lipski'.

What this is fatal to is the Kozminski hypothesis (my favorite since reading Fido's trials and crimes). However if the above is right, not only didn't Kozminski do it, but the later writings by law enforcement connected with the case where a Jew is indicated as the perpetrator are at odds too with it. Men who knew about the Lipski slur. Did they ever suggest a connection between the GSG to Schwartz?

No matter how much graffiti was in Whitechapel at the time, or whatever graffiti wars where taking place, it seems that one has to play the coincidence card yet again or else the inference is clear. JtR is a cockey speaking englishman, not an immigrant and not a jew.

[Michael W Richards]

Without being the murderer in both instances, how did he necessarily know about the Berner St. murder when much of the police didn't even know - especially details like the exact location and the anarchists club?

I just answered this on the BSM thread, but essentially the time gap between the murder and the cloth being found is almost 70 minutes. I trust Longs vehement statement, so that leaves some time for the killer to have heard about the goings on in Berner Street at an Anarchists club from street chatter as news spread.

We have no idea where this guy might have gone with the cloth and organs, but who knows, he might have lived near Berner Street himself. Or he might just be anti Jew...like many of the local population.

[Hunter]

And so with that in mind -- with knowledge of two murders being perpetrated in the area, and it now crawling with police... the murderer in the second instance decides to go back with incriminating evidence and place it and a cryptic message at a Jewish tenement - just for jolly to make a point of clarity foir the events of the night shall we say.

You missed your calling, Mike. With your imagination, you should write a novel.

[c.d.]

Do Sickert's paintings reveal details that only the killer would know and are they symbolic of the killings themselves? Well Patricia Cornwell says yes and some art critics say she is full of it. So which one of them is correct? I am going to go out on a limb and say that only Sickert himself would know for sure.

See my point here? The discussion of the GSG has gone Cornwellian. What started as speculation has somehow become established fact, i.e., that Jack wrote the GSG and that the message is anti semitic in nature, and that he is an englishman and not a Jew.

Whoa. Let's take a step back here folks. It simply can't be proven that Jack wrote it and I am sorry but the message is ambiguous and thus open to interpretation. Simply making arguments as to its authorship and its meaning do not create established facts. If it were that easy then Patricia Cornwell has already solved the case.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

See my point here? The discussion of the GSG has gone Cornwellian. What started as speculation has somehow become established fact, i.e., that Jack wrote the GSG and that the message is anti semitic in nature, and that he is an englishman and not a Jew.

Whoa. Let's take a step back here folks. It simply can't be proven that Jack wrote it and I am sorry but the message is ambiguous and thus open to interpretation. Simply making arguments as to its authorship and its meaning do not create established facts. If it were that easy then Patricia Cornwell has already solved the case.

c.d.

Well said c.d.
Reality can be tough medicine to the theorist.

[Batman]

Contemporary facts from the case demonstrate irrevocably that the Whitechapel murder investigators considered the GSG to be an attack on the jews. Chief Inspector Swanson's report, 6 November 1888, HO 144/221/A49301C, quoted in Evans and Skinner, The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Sourcebook, pp. 185–188

So any claims the message was not considered anti-semetic by contemporary police is firmly rendered implausable because evidence exists to the contrary.

Some modern interpretations reject that the message is anti-semetic. They are wrong.

Kozminski expert Robert House accepts that these anti-semetic parts of the whitechapel narrative could have been done by a Jew and gives examples of Jews insulting other Jews. So the need to fit in a Jewish suspect doesn't have to abandon Stride or the GSG. I find House's explaination better than any of the anti-stride/gsg people on here, but I do not choose his explanation because I think a gentile did the above.

Schwartz reported a Jewish racial slur being hurled at him by a man who could be JtR attacking Stride. One woman died shortly after this point. Only minutes later Eddowes is murdered but some Jews saw her with a man.

In both cases we have JtR being disturbed by Jews.

Is it not a million miles away to believe to JtR killed Stride because she could identify him and he was disturbed in the act of procuring his target by a Jew?

Is it not a milliom miles away to believe that JtR was seen by more Jews that evening and so after Stride went home and thought about this and decided to do something about it? So went back outside with his chalk and apron to a Jewish sector for an anti-semetic message about how they caused a double murder instead of a single one?

Put that in yet pipe and smoke it.

[The Good Michael]

Contemporary facts from the case demonstrate irrevocably that the Whitechapel murder investigators considered the GSG to be an attack on the jews. Chief Inspector Swanson's report, 6 November 1888, HO 144/221/A49301C, quoted in Evans and Skinner, The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Sourcebook, pp. 185–188

So any claims the message was not considered anti-semetic by contemporary police is firmly rendered implausable because evidence exists to the contrary.

Some modern interpretations reject that the message is anti-semetic. They are wrong.

Evidence does not exist to the contrary. Show me evidence saying that the message was specifically anti-semitic. Warren doesn't say that and Arnold doesn't say that. Neither does Halse. There was a fear of anti-semitic backlash, but that says nothing about the message itself. You are coming off as a bit clownish here. Get a grip.

Mike

[Batman]

Hi Michael,

You might not be aware of this but the bit in italics above is called a reference. So which part of Swanson's report did you disagree with? Because he certainly disagrees with you.

Learn these words...

"was to throw blame on the jews".


"Upon the discovery of the blurred chalk writing on the wall,written--although mis-spelled in the second word,--in an ordinary hand in the midst of a locality principally inhabited by Jews of all nationalities as well as English, and upon the wall of a common stairs leading to a number of tenements occupied almost exclusively by Jews, and the purport of the writing as shown at page 3 was to throw blame upon the Jews, the Commr. deemed it advisable to have them rubbed out."

Hope you enjoyed learning about referencing.