The GSG. What Does It Mean??

[The Good Michael]

Dan believes the GSG was written by the killer

Hold on! Dan most certainly didn't say that. He was chastising Glenn for his certainty. He said that there are beliefs by established experts that the GSG was connected to the murders, not that the killer wrote it. These are two different things.

Cheers,

Mike

[auspirograph]

Finally

Finally, Dan Norder has taken a stand on something, apart from the no bolster issue but let's not go there.

Dan believes the GSG was written by the killer because "Other killers have left messages at or near crime scenes", and because " The standard beliefs of the police and several authors (doesn't say which, probably Stan Russo) interpret it as relating to the murders".

The police didn't know at the time and neither do you regardless of any interpretations.

Only the killer knew for sure.

I can agree with Glenn on his assessment that Jack the Ripper had other things on his mind than nurturing the outlandish beliefs of Dan Norder.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Dan,

This is all a load of bollocks.
yes, many killers leave messages but there is absolutely nothing in the content of the message that in any way refers to the murders, and you know it.
The fact that he trew the apron there wouldn't in any way stop him from writing a message that would be clearer in its intent and wording. The notion that he threw the apron there in order to 'connect' it with the rather vague and useless text is of course nothing but nonsense. Sure, there was limited room on the door jamb, but if the Ripper wanted to make a statement, why bother writing on the door jamb at all? Nor does the limited place explain why he would waste time in a dangerous situation by wiriting it in a neat schoolboy's hand.

Nor could the killer be sure of that the rather dirty piece of apron would be found - since several things could have happened to this piece of cloth during the night or the following morning, leaving the message as just another anstisemtic scribbling - nor would he be sure of that it even would be identified or connected with the Eddowes murder.

I don't know where you get this about 'standard belief' from, but I can only view that as an example of your usual selective approach.
The City police - indeed - found it to be an important clue that at least was worth saving and reproduced but the Met only appears to have been concerned about the reference to the Jews and we know that is why Arnold and Warren wanted it to be destroyed. Just because they found the apron there doesn't mean they automatically viewed it as an important Ripper clue.
As for authors: well some see it as related to the murders but then again others certainly don't, so your erronous claim that it's a 'standard belief' is totally unsupported, if not false.

All the best

[Dan Norder]

No killer running away from a crime scene would stop to chalk up a message in a neat schoolboy's hand and quite low on the jamb (at shoulder-height) and that is so small and insignificant,

Other killers have left messages at or near crime scenes, so I don't know where you get your "no killer" claim from. If it was left by the killer, having it be closer to the apron would make the connection more clear, and if it was on the door jamb the size of the writing would be a consequence of how little room there was to write more than any intent to make it small, regardless of who wrote it.

not to mention the fact its content does not in any way relate to the murders.

You wouldn't know that unless you know for a fact what it means. The standard beliefs of the police and several authors interpret it as relating to the murders, so why you insist that it doesn't is beyond me.

[Rosey O'Ryan]

The whole GSG thing has become blown totally out of proportion.
No killer running away from a crime scene would stop to chalk up a message in a neat schoolboy's hand and quite low on the jamb (at shoulder-height) and that is so small and insignificant, not to mention the fact its content does not in any way relate to the murders. We can discuss til Kindom Come what it means, but fact remains that such a scenario is unlikely.

The message became explosive because of the apron found in connection with it, and because it was found in an area with a very high Jewish population. This was the only concern of the Met police - that the message might further inflame the antisemitic situation in the area. The message was found smack bang in the middle of Jewish vendor territory, with Wentworth Street right around the corner and the most logical explanation is that it was antisemitic and that it might have been directed towards Jewish traders and written by an unsatisfied customer. The location of the message plus the fact that it never mentions anything of relevance regarding the murders makes this pretty likely.

Why the apron was dropped there - or if the Ripper just happened to see it as he by sheer coincidence saw it when he stopped in the doorway - is another question and that is the real mystery but the message was most certainly not written by the killer.

All the best

Mr Andersson,

A lot of 'ifs' and 'buts' and 'likely'. Please provide a rational discourse regarding the apron connudrum...you are quite capable of that! Them there "Juwes" are tricky folk.
Rosey.

[The Good Michael]

No killer running away from a crime scene would stop to chalk up a message in a neat schoolboy's hand and quite low on the jamb.

Agreed

and the most logical explanation is that it was antisemitic and that it might have been directed towards Jewish traders and written by an unsatisfied customer.

That is not the most logical explanation. The most logical explanation is that it was written by an unhappy Jew, and that the police were afraid that a disgruntled Jew's message would exacerbate the already volatile Jew/Non-Jew situation. And let me add that a message written by a non-Jew would hardly add to the contemporary mindset of the locals, whereas a message suggesting pro-Jewish sentiment would be very inflamatory in the minds of locals who already hated them.

I do agree that it wasn't written by the murderer. Yet it was possibly the same sentiment he felt.

Cheers,

Mike

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

The whole GSG thing has become blown totally out of proportion.
No killer running away from a crime scene would stop to chalk up a message in a neat schoolboy's hand and quite low on the jamb (at shoulder-height) and that is so small and insignificant, not to mention the fact its content does not in any way relate to the murders. We can discuss til Kindom Come what it means, but fact remains that such a scenario is unlikely.

The message became explosive because of the apron found in connection with it, and because it was found in an area with a very high Jewish population. This was the only concern of the Met police - that the message might further inflame the antisemitic situation in the area. The message was found smack bang in the middle of Jewish vendor territory, with Wentworth Street right around the corner and the most logical explanation is that it was antisemitic and that it might have been directed towards Jewish traders and written by an unsatisfied customer. The location of the message plus the fact that it never mentions anything of relevance regarding the murders makes this pretty likely.

Why the apron was dropped there - or if the Ripper just happened to see it as he by sheer coincidence saw it when he stopped in the doorway - is another question and that is the real mystery but the message was most certainly not written by the killer.

All the best

[Fisherman]

Stephen Thomas asks:

"Would you stop to write a chalk message on a wall (in tiny lettering) that included a double negative that actually meant a positive?"

I don´t know nothing about that, Stephen. But I do believe that regardless of who wrote the GSG, the double negative was not something that was inserted as an conscious element of style.

David, I think you are right when you write that it looks both pompous and clumsy - but only if you look at it the traditional way. If you use the interpretation I suggested some posts back, it does not have that tone at all. Then it becomes ordinary, unpretentious cockney, nothing else.

The best, both of you!

Fisherman

[DVV]

Hi Stephen,
I guess I would not stop at all to chalk any message! Still some police at the time interpreted the GSG, double negative or not, as antisemitic. As well as some English-speaking posters here.
Another problem is that the wording does not sound like a sentence exchanged between friends, or home. To me, it's both clumsy and pompous, isn't it?

Amitiés,
David

[Stephen Thomas]

Hi Stephen,
I understand that the wording is open to debate.
But suppose you are a "Gentile" going to the market on this Sunday morning.
You see the graffito and read it.
What would have been your first understanding of it? Would it have been the one you are suggesting now?

Amitiés,
David

Yes David, mon ami
In English, and of course in American English common speech, the double negative is used for emphasis. For instance I came home from a hard day's work recently and my wife wanted me to go out somewhere. I said, 'I'm tired and I don't want to anywhere'. When she tried to insist I then said 'Look, I'm NOT going NOWHERE'. David, please imagine that that you are a frenzied disemboweller with a dead lady's kidney in your pocket. Would you stop to write a chalk message on a wall (in tiny lettering) that included a double negative that actually meant a positive?

[DVV]

Being called a Swede has nothing of reduction to it, David! And for all I know, the same goes for the French, at least the ones I´ve come across.

If you are familiar with my earlier posts, you will know that I have never been one to see the GSG as connected to the murders. But as things stand, I am working along a line where it is actually an outward possibility to apply the message - interpreted the way I suggested - to my scenario. That´s why I decided to throw it up on the table and see what happened!

The best, mon ami!

Fisherman

In Southern France and Corsica, we have ambiguous feelings about France. After all, the Franks were a Dutch-speaking tribe, and Provence did exist before France...but no matter...
I know your position about the GSG and the murders, but this thread is more about the meaning of the GSG, though the question of his author is never far.

Adessias, moun bèu!
Dàvi

[Fisherman]

Being called a Swede has nothing of reduction to it, David! And for all I know, the same goes for the French, at least the ones I´ve come across.

If you are familiar with my earlier posts, you will know that I have never been one to see the GSG as connected to the murders. But as things stand, I am working along a line where it is actually an outward possibility to apply the message - interpreted the way I suggested - to my scenario. That´s why I decided to throw it up on the table and see what happened!

The best, mon ami!

Fisherman

[DVV]

David, I wish I could tell if you are pulling my leg or not; the French are the men that will not pull the Swedes legs for nothing, mind you!

Fisherman

Of course not, Fisherman,
I appreciated your thought as much as I appreciated the old remark about "nothing". I admit I don't believe them to be true for one second, though I find them somehow stimulating and brillant. More than reducing us as a "French" and a "Swedish"!

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

Of course it is another layer of interpretation, Sam. But since it has not helped to try and solve the riddle by using ancient Mongolian handscripts read from the end, or by reading elements of cryptic West-Samoan rites for funerals of self-beheaded rabbits into it, I fail to see why new interpretations should NOT be applied. And this time we do not have to read anything into the matter than what is said in the message, which I consider something of a relief...!
If the Ripper did not know that the Imperial Club was jewish, fair enough. But then again, he may of course have been very much aware that it WAS jewish. I don´t think we can make any safe assumptions either way. A simple thing, like an article in a newspaper or a tell-tale sign outside the club may have given it´s religious contents away.

For what it´s worth, I have never been much of a GSG addict myself. But if I am to accept it, I prefer to do it with the help of a logical understanding that can be applied to the actual events!

David, I wish I could tell if you are pulling my leg or not; the French are the men that will not pull the Swedes legs for nothing, mind you!

The best, Sam, David!

Fisherman

[DVV]

Hi Fisherman and all,
in the category "just a thought", I remind a post (from the archives...?) that connected "nothing" with Eddowes answering "Nothing" as her name, when in custody.
Just a reminiscence I find intriguing!

Amitiés,
David