Time-gap between Eddowes murder and Goulston Graffito

[Fisherman]

My bad, Fish - I realise that I've got my wires crossed with Dr Brown's comments on the kidney ("It is easily overlooked. It is covered by a membrane".) I won't do it again!

Halse is reported as saying that he would not necessarily have seen it, which is tantamount to saying that it was easily overlooked anyway. Halse also states that the apron was inside the building, which supports the conclusion that it was indeed easily overlooked.

Gareth!

I can see where you are coming from, and indeed we know that Halse recognized that even if the apron WAS there, he could have overlooked it.

There is however a difference inbetween the two wordings. "I should not necessarily have seen it, since it was in the building" tells me that A/ Halse admitted that the apron COULD be seen from the street, and B/ one would not necessarily see it anyway, if one was hurrying along to look for people. If it was inside the building, there would only be a short window of time in which Halse could see it; exactly when he passed outside the doorway. And that would have been a quick affair!

"It was easily overlooked", on the other hand, speaks more to me of an almost hidden apron. And that would - at least to my way of looking upon it - disclose a placing deeply into the doorway or perhaps one where the apron was hidden behind the wall to the right side of the doorway. Something such.

It is just nuances we are speaking of, of course. But "easily overlooked" firmly tells us that it was more out of sight, while "I should not necessarily have seen it" is something I couple more to Halse´s haste.

My own best guess is that the apron was fully visible from the street, but it would nevertheless demand of you that you fixed your gaze on the doorway floor to see it. And Halse was - if I am correct - not prioritizing such a thing. Long, however, would have made it his top priority to check the doorways.

That´s how I see things, and that´s why I find the two quotes potentially implicate different things!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

There is however a difference inbetween the two wordings. "I should not necessarily have seen it, since it was in the building" tells me that A/ Halse admitted that the apron COULD be seen from the street, and B/ one would not necessarily see it anyway [if one was hurrying along to look for people.]

No need for the qualifier, Fish. If it was in the passageway then one would not necessarily see it, period.

My own best guess is that the apron was fully visible from the street, but it would nevertheless demand of you that you fixed your gaze on the doorway floor to see it. Long, however, would have made it his top priority to check the doorways

He needn't have made it a "top priority" at all. A quick glance to the left or right, with eyes at... um... eye-level, would normally suffice to ensure that "all was in order", and I don't imagine he'd have done even that for every single doorway he passed. He certainly had no reason whatsoever to scrutinise darkened hallway floors.

[Sam Flynn]

And it needn't have been "missing" for any great length of time. It could easily have been dropped there at 2:23.

I wrote this a little earlier... any takers?

[Wickerman]

My bad, Fish - I realise that I've got my wires crossed with Dr Brown's comments on the kidney ("It is easily overlooked. It is covered by a membrane".) I won't do it again!

Halse is reported as saying that he would not necessarily have seen it, which is tantamount to saying that it was easily overlooked anyway. Halse also states that the apron was inside the building, which supports the conclusion that it was indeed easily overlooked.

Even if the piece of apron was at the foot of the archway, (where the words of PC Long & Warren collectively place it), it is still within the building.
What is not clear is whether 'easily overlooked' is a reference to its location, or simply that it was so dark at 2:20 am., that it could have been easily overlooked.



It is not out on the footpath.

[Sam Flynn]

Even if the piece of apron was at the foot of the archway, (where the words of PC Long & Warren collectively place it)

Warren places the graffito on the "open archway", which is in itself open to debate. That notwithstanding, I didn't recall that either he or Long stated the exact location of the apron, whereas Halse quite unambiguously places it inside the building. Furthermore, on more than one occasion at the inquest, jurors' questions are raised that refer to the apron being inside the hallway.

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: No need for the qualifier, Fish. If it was in the passageway then one would not necessarily see it, period.

I beg to differ. Not about the fact that one would not necessarily see a rag lying in a passageway, since that is very true.
The qualifier, though, tells us that it COULD be seen - it was not impossible to see it from the street. And it could have been anything from quite easy to rather hard to see.
I find this point very important: the rag could be seen from the street - that´s what lies in Halse´s words.

He needn't have made it a "top priority" at all. A quick glance to the left or right, with eyes at... um... eye-level, would normally suffice to ensure that "all was in order", and I don't imagine he'd have done even that for every single doorway he passed. He certainly had no reason whatsoever to scrutinise darkened hallway floors.

The top priority it the thing that you put on top of your list of things to do. And checking doors would have held the top spot on Longs list of routines - unless you can offer any contenders to that title?

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Even if the piece of apron was at the foot of the archway, (where the words of PC Long & Warren collectively place it), it is still within the building.
What is not clear is whether 'easily overlooked' is a reference to its location, or simply that it was so dark at 2:20 am., that it could have been easily overlooked.



It is not out on the footpath.

This is very much how I think the rag was positioned, Jon; clearly visible - to those who looked. And Halse did not, since he had other things on his mind.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

.... whereas Halse quite unambiguously places it inside the building...

He can't be "unambiguous" when the apron had been removed before he arrived.
Halse can only "assume" from talking with others. Much like what we are doing here

PC Long saw it in place, and above it was written the graffiti. Warren identifies where the graffiti was located.
Ie; collectively they describe the location of the piece of apron.

[Sam Flynn]

This is very much how I think the rag was positioned, Jon

Nothing on record suggests that, Fish, and the sources we have say that the apron was "in the building".

clearly visible

Again, no. Wherever it was, it was situated where one would "not necessarily have seen" it.

Jon's helpful illustration meets neither criteria, unfortunately. As Jon has it, the apron could only very tenuously be described as being "in the building", and is certainly not in a position where one would "not necessarily see it".

[Sam Flynn]

PC Long saw it in place, and above it was written the graffiti.

Long is variously reported as saying the graffito was "above it on the wall", "on the wall above", or similar. Nowhere does he say that the graffito was "directly above" the apron. He does, however, consistently refer to the graffito being on "the wall" - as opposed to on the open doorway.

Warren identifies where the graffiti was located.

Is it possible that Warren was indulging in a touch of rectum protectum for having washed away a potentially important piece of evidence, by exaggerating how publicly visible the offending graffito actually was?

collectively they describe the location of the piece of apron.

Unfortunately, neither describes the precise location of the apron with respect to the graffito. We can only infer that the apron was "below it" in some way.

[Sam Flynn]

The top priority it the thing that you put on top of your list of things to do. And checking doors would have held the top spot on Longs list of routines - unless you can offer any contenders to that title?

How about "floor inspector" or "litter warden"?

Long had neither title.

[Wickerman]

Long is variously reported as saying the graffito was "above it on the wall", "on the wall above", or similar. Nowhere does he say that the graffito was "directly above" the apron. He does, however, consistently refer to the graffito being on "the wall" - as opposed to on the open doorway.

You are attempting to put too finer point on it.
These people were not trying to differentiate between a 'wall-wall', or an 'inside-wall', or an 'outside-wall', ...as opposed to an 'archway-wall'.

You have a choice, the graffiti was either on the floor, the wall or the ceiling.
As the building 'wall' joins the floor to the ceiling, not only on the outside of the building, but also through to the inside, why try to claim it doesn't apply to the opening?

Is it possible that Warren was indulging in a touch of rectum protectum for having washed away a potentially important piece of evidence, by exaggerating how publicly visible the offending graffito actually was?

No.

Unfortunately, neither describes the precise location of the apron with respect to the graffito. We can only infer that the apron was "below it" in some way.

As opposed to what, Halse? - who can only relate what others told him because he wasn't even present.
Halse may have been under the impression where the apron was found, but he didn't "know".

Only PC Long "knew".

[Sam Flynn]

You are attempting to put too finer point on it.

Not at all, Jon. I'm merely trying to be precise. Long describes the location of the graffito thus: "It [the apron] was lying in the passage leading to the staircase of 118 and 119". He goes on: "It [the graffito] was written on the black brick... The bricks are painted black up to about four feet high, like a dado, and above that are white."

So, the apron was "in the passage" and the writing on "a dado", as opposed to being "at the very entrance of the passage" and "on a pillar", respectively.

As opposed to what, Halse? - who can only relate what others told him because he wasn't even present.

He was, later, where Halse describes the graffito as being on the "black fa[s]cia of the wall". Fascia, to me and the OED, suggests a long, flat expanse of wood, stone or marble; not the narrow, elongated cube of bricks forming the pillars at the entrance of Wentworth Model Dwellings. To me, Warren's statement as to the graffito's location is distinctly at odds with both Long's and Halse's testimony.

Halse may have been under the impression where the apron was found, but he didn't "know".

He'd almost certainly have asked, and/or would have been shown where the apron lay.

[Monty]

Long would only check doors of which he was instructed to check, or on vulnerable places.

Does the coal cellar qualify?

Also, which side of Goulston Street was he when he conducted his beat at 2.20am?

Monty

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn:

Nothing on record suggests that, Fish, and the sources we have say that the apron was "in the building".Again, no. Wherever it was, it was situated where one would "not necessarily have seen" it.

Eh - I only said that this was where I think the apron would have been, justaboutish. Surely, I must be allowed to have my own picture of things? No?

Again, no. Wherever it was, it was situated where one would "not necessarily have seen" it.

No, it was not. It was sityated where HALSE should not necessarily have noticed it. And Halse, as I´m sure you will recall, was hasting along, looking for people. If Goulston Street had no people on it, my best guess is that he would not care a iot about the doorways, but instead scuttle along to the next street corner. And bear in mind that Jons sketch is a daylight one. Whan Halse passed down the street, it was dark and shady, and things were a lot more difficult to make out.

As Jon has it, the apron could only very tenuously be described as being "in the building".

Exactly - it COULD be described as being in the building. Tenuously, perhaps, but there you are.

The best,
Fisherman