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Les juifs sont les hommes qui ne seront pas blâmés pour rien

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  • Les juifs sont les hommes qui ne seront pas blâmés pour rien

    Robert D'Onston Stephenson writing as 'One Who Thinks He Knows' surmised on Dec. 1, 1888, that the writer of the GSG was French, and used the French word for Jews but as 'Juives' in the wrong grammatical form.
    https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881201.html

    This idea was rebutted a few days later also in the pall mall gazette by a native french contributor, sensibly arguing that such basic grammatical errors of gender simply could not occur if the writer was a native speaker.
    https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881206.html

    But D'Onston Stepehnson raised another point in his piece, that is the grammatical structure of the sentence, which to him supported the assumption that the writer was French. Now what if the writer was French, but wanted to write a full English sentence, translating in his head from his native French, and unsure how exactly to spell 'Juifs' in English. But he knew it was something with w. The result could well be 'Juwes', a misspelling by a native French who had a certain command of the English language, but still stuck to the syntax of his native grammar and committed occasional spelling mistakes.

    The night of the double event is like a big red arrow pointing towards Jews, a point the killer wanted to press home after the speculation in the September media about the Ripper possibly being a Jew, following the temporary arrest of Leather Apron. From the Socialist Jewish Workers Club, to the Great Synagogue, to the Graffito, the killer had planned to commit his crime and leave his traces creating the closest possible association to Jews. So that after September 30th, no doubt would remain that the Whitechapel killer was a Jew.

    If there are some native French speakers on these boards, I would really appreciate some opinions as to whether the sentence in the subject line 'Les juifs sont les hommes qui ne seront pas blâmés pour rien' makes more sense in French than it does in its English version 'The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing'. At least 'sont les/des hommes' and the double negative 'ne... rien' are typical French grammatical structures, which if translated literally would lead to the strange sounding wording of the GSG.
    Last edited by IchabodCrane; 02-26-2020, 06:18 PM.

  • #2
    The night of the double event is like a big red arrow pointing towards Jews, a point the killer wanted to press home after the speculation in the September media about the Ripper possibly being a Jew, following the temporary arrest of Leather Apron. From the Socialist Jewish Workers Club, to the Great Synagogue, to the Graffito, the killer had planned to commit his crime and leave his traces creating the closest possible association to Jews. So that after September 30th, no doubt would remain that the Whitechapel killer was a Jew.


    Hello Ichabod,

    That might have been his intention but if the GSG is supposed to be the final piece of the puzzle which connects all the dots (and I think that connection is tentative at best) then he dropped the ball big time. Nobody knows what the hell it means.

    c.d.

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    • #3
      Juwes is a Frisian/Dutch word for Jews.

      Huyg Dirksz painted under the name Douwe Juwes de Dowe which continually confuses Ripperologists.

      If Jack the Ripper grew up in Acklam,Middlesbrough , he would be familiar with the word. Especially when his father and uncle were Master Mariners.

      A ferry still runs between between Middlesbrough and Friesland.
      Last edited by DJA; 02-26-2020, 07:14 PM.
      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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      • #4
        I suppose, if one was to theorise the GSG was written in some pidgin English, then it's not the same author of any of the letters?
        Them's the vagaries.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by c.d. View Post
          The night of the double event is like a big red arrow pointing towards Jews, a point the killer wanted to press home after the speculation in the September media about the Ripper possibly being a Jew, following the temporary arrest of Leather Apron. From the Socialist Jewish Workers Club, to the Great Synagogue, to the Graffito, the killer had planned to commit his crime and leave his traces creating the closest possible association to Jews. So that after September 30th, no doubt would remain that the Whitechapel killer was a Jew.


          Hello Ichabod,

          That might have been his intention but if the GSG is supposed to be the final piece of the puzzle which connects all the dots (and I think that connection is tentative at best) then he dropped the ball big time. Nobody knows what the hell it means.

          c.d.
          That's because he was French he thought the meaning would be clear to everyone, as it would have been for a frenchman in the original

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DJA View Post
            Juwes is a Frisian/Dutch word for Jews.

            Huyg Dirksz painted under the name Douwe Juwes de Dowe which continually confuses Ripperologists.

            If Jack the Ripper grew up in Acklam,Middlesbrough , he would be familiar with the word. Especially when his father and uncle were Master Mariners.

            A ferry still runs between between Middlesbrough and Friesland.
            I think it is not so much about that one individual word, but about the grammatical structure of the sentence. The structure I believe is not Frisian. Back-translating the GSG e.g. into dutch or German, does not provide any meaningful dutch or german sentence.

            Die Juden sind die Männer, die nicht für nichts die Schuld kriegen -> hmm, no. emphatically no.
            de joden zijn de mannen die niet voor niets de schuld krijgen -> same problem as in english, it might be understood, but doesnt really make sense

            In French however, the 'backward translation' yields a sentence that can be understood and gives meaning.
            Last edited by IchabodCrane; 02-26-2020, 07:39 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post
              I suppose, if one was to theorise the GSG was written in some pidgin English, then it's not the same author of any of the letters?
              Most probably the murderer is not the author of any of the letters. On none of the letters there is a majority opinion that they were sent by the actual murderer. The one with the highest probability to be genuine is the 'From Hell' letter, which is however in a completely different style and jargon.

              Comment


              • #8
                My comment was simply on the word 'Juwes'.

                Having had to endure French for two years at school,you can be assured the structure is not French.

                Juives has been done to death here for many,many years.

                Guess it's time for a revival.

                The women are the men .......
                Last edited by DJA; 02-26-2020, 07:45 PM.
                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DJA View Post
                  My comment was simply on the word 'Juwes'.

                  Having had to endure French for two years at school,you can be assured the structure is not French.

                  Juives has been done to death here for many,many years.

                  Guess it's time for a revival.

                  The women are the men .......
                  I hope this thread will turn out to be about the sentence structure, not about the word. Having also had only 2 years of school French, I am looking toward some confident French connoisseurs on these boards to offer opinions. To me the structure ('sont les/des hommes' ... 'ne... rien' ) is more evidently french than french toast and french fries.

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                  • #10
                    So,you reckon a French person would make the mistake of writing Juives instead of Juifs?

                    The men are the men .....
                    Last edited by DJA; 02-26-2020, 08:04 PM.
                    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DJA View Post
                      So,your reckon a French person would make the mistake of writing Juives instead of Juifs?
                      No, that was the point of my original post: A french person would never have written 'Juives'. But he could have written 'Juwes' because he thought that is what its spelled in English. The point being he tried to write the english word, not wrote a French word as was surmised by Stephenson.

                      Stephenson was wrong about the w being an iv, but he was right about the grammar structure.
                      Last edited by IchabodCrane; 02-26-2020, 08:07 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Perhaps D'Onstyn got the word Juwes from Henry Gawen Sutton while he was being treated as an inpatient.

                        His neurasthenia and subsequent addiction to chloral hydrate may have dulled his brain.
                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DJA View Post
                          Perhaps D'Onstyn got the word Juwes from Henry Gawen Sutton while he was being treated as an inpatient.

                          His neurasthenia and subsequent addiction to chloral hydrate may have dulled his brain.
                          His brain was apparently sharp enough to recognize the French grammar of the GSG. Unfortunately Stephenson got sidetracked by focussing on the word Juwes, which is still confusing the discussion until this day. The syntax of the sentence tells us all: the writer was French! It would be strange for a cockney speaker to spell 'Juwes' but a native of France might have got his spelling confused in the rush of the moment, having almost dropped a kidney from his apron seconds before.

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                          • #14
                            All jokes aside,the syntax is not French.

                            Stevenson lied a lot.

                            Like meeting Edward Bulwer Lytton in Paris in 1859.

                            Doubt he could even speak French.

                            All the Best!
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Perhaps Jack was having fun with the Old Jewry with a double entente.

                              Nothing may be part of that,in reference to Eddowes.
                              Rather like when Odysseus stabs Polyphemus in the eye and then the latter yells "No-one has hurt me!"
                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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