The meaning of the GSG wording

[Beowulf]

Because the wall is still there, once it is gone, it can't be done, ever, at all. Maybe and likely would show nothing, but plenty of times something is done and something happens and someone says, 'oh look', didn't expect that.

If he wrote, he had blood on his hands, so therefore blood would or should be on the wall.

If not, there would be none. I'd not bother with dna. I'm sure it can interact with iron, and anything else, the results would mean not much, but then again, would be interesting to see absolutely NO reactions. I'd feel a little more like, well, hmm. Nothing, hmm.

Would like it to actually be done, while the building still exists.

Felt the same as you did about Borden, but then again, I have no doubt about the Borden thing, I can't imagine anyone did it but Lizzie. Evidence permitting I would believe otherwise, but man, she was it, far as I'm concerned.

I still found it interesting they used the luminol and had results. Good info on the possible reasoning why, though.

[RivkahChaya]

Still would like to see them use luminol on the gsg area. I recently saw where they used it in the Lizzie Borden house, admittedly an untouched area (they used it in the basement) but if I could, would just like to see if anything showed up.

What would you expect to see in the GSG area from luminol? The odds that someone at some time in the intervening 124 years left blood there are pretty good, and luminol doesn't give you dates. You might collect 124 samples of blood. If you get any DNA samples, what will you try and match them to? Does Catherine Eddowes have living descendants?

If we had a single sample, like something from the Lusk letter, or if we still had Eddowes apron, and found male DNA on it, suggesting the killer had cut himself, then I suppose, if it were permitted, some kind of kinship analysis could be done, assuming that the UK has a DNA bank like the US does. You could cross-check the Y-chromosome, and mDNA with incarcerated people, people in the military, and anyone else in the DNA bank for a match, and then look at that person's ancestors. It wouldn't need to be a direct ancestor. It could be a great-grandparent's brother, who had not children himself, but it would mean disrupting the lives of people to learn about their backgrounds. Some people might not mind, but it's not worth even asking for a random sample found near the site of the graffito. It needs to be more definite than that, I think.

I saw the Borden piece on TV, and was kind of "whoop-de-****" about it. They found a big reactive spot right under the place where Mrs. Borden had lain, bleeding, for several hours. The floor was wood. Not terribly shocking. Then they found a metal pan which well could have been iron, and it glowed around the edges, but not the basin. It looked to me like it had been painted, but the paint had worn away around the edges. In that case, the luminol probably simply reacted with the iron of the pan. Luminol reacts with copper as well, so it could have been a copper pan.

And then, whoever murdered the Bordens probably did wash up somewhere on the premises, whether it was Lizzie or not, and the police did handle the case sloppily, so their not finding the basin, and having it as evidence for the DA to suggest a scenario where Lizzie could wash up quickly with ready water, between murders, and after the second one, is not surprising.

[Beowulf]

Still would like to see them use luminol on the gsg area. I recently saw where they used it in the Lizzie Borden house, admittedly an untouched area (they used it in the basement) but if I could, would just like to see if anything showed up.

Also, I do think likely the writing was written by JTR. I realize many don't but I do. I find the apron just below it, on a likely route away from the crime scene and the message itself being cryptic and bizarre to be enough for me to think so.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Neil

Obviously I bow to your superior knowlege...but weren't the Barnett crowd involved somewhere in these schemes...don't know where I read it, but it lurks in the nethermost regions of my mind...perhaps it's to do with the Wentworth Street Arch...was that erected by the Four PerCenters perhaps? It's certainly before the Rowton Houses...

OK it's Friday night...I've had a couple of cans and simply can't recall where I heard this...enlighten me please mate!

All the best

Dave

[Monty]

The Artisans' and Labourers' Dwellings Improvement Act 1875, better known as the Cross Act after then Home Secertary Richard Cross was an act where slum buildings were pulled down with new Artizan buildings replacing them.

Wentworth Dwellings were part of this process. No Jewish involvement, not built exclusively for Jews. Built for Common people.

So to state the building built for Jews only is not correct.

Monty

[Cogidubnus]

Percentages

Weren't the Wentworth Dwellings part of the effort by Barnett's Four Percenters? At least that's the dim recollection I have?

All the best

Dave

[Monty]

Nor should you be.

So its not exclusively.

And you base this 90% on?

Monty

[Michael W Richards]

Exculsively Jewish Housing Project?



Good grief.

Monty

I debated how to phrase that Monty and considered Primarily.., but I believe that over 90% of the occupants of the Model Homes at that time were Jewish so I rounded up...not surprised you called me out on it though.


Cheers

[RivkahChaya]

Though there has been a lot of weathering over the years, paint, etc. still, it might be interesting to see what could show up if someone were to try a little luminal on the GSG wall.

I don't think you mean luminol ("luminal" is a barbiturate); I think you mean "subject to examination with UV light to check for fluorescence or phosphorescence." Luminol is a chemical that reacts to oxidizing agents by glowing blue under normal (but not bright) light, although tests are usually done under slightly dimmed light. The glow doesn't last, but it can be photographed with normal film. Luminol needs to be mixed with an oxidant just before it is used, and then a catalyst, of which iron is one, will produce the bright glow. Copper will produce it too, and so will bleach, so use lots of bleach to clean up your crime scenes.

UV light makes things glow in the dark, and a lot of body fluids, as well as teeth and bone fragments also do that, so if you are trying to find the blood spatter on a wall painted reddish-brown, you can turn off the light, and turn on a UV light. It'll help you find non-biological substances that glow too, which chalk might do, however, even if some remnants of chalk, or gypsum, or whatever, were to show up left from the graffito, there is no way we could differentiate them from every other glowing speck that will be there by now, plus, whatever may happen to glow in the bricks and the paint.

What does the message mean?

I don't think we can ever know, unless someone finds a diary or letter that mentions other fragments of graffito on the same subject.

Graffiti then (and graffiti now, but then even more so) was a sort of text-messaging in many cases. Didn't that happen, if not on building walls, at least in the bathroom stalls where you went to school?

I think something came before this message, to which it was a response, and without having the previous text, we can't fully understand the GSG.

If the GSG and apron have any connection whatsoever, it is probably just that JTR paused to read it, and that's why he dropped the apron there.

Regarding the apron, and why he cut a piece to take with him: does anyone think it is plausible that he cut himself, and that's why he took the rag with him, instead of wiping his knife, or hands on it at the scene. He may have held it on his hand until it stopped bleeding, then dropped it, because he didn't want to walk into his house with it.

[Monty]

Exculsively Jewish Housing Project?



Good grief.

Monty

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

Despite the fact that an earlier post seems to believe that this issue should be laid to rest, it is far from being satisfactorily explained.

What does the message mean? Well, it is written about Jews, in an exclusively Jewish housing project entrance, and below it on the ground a piece of crime scene evidence is left. Since there were 2 murders that night, (actually 3 throat slittings if you count Mr Brown and his wife), and the crime scene evidence is from the second murder...which had far less overtly Jewish themes..one might surmise that the message intended to Blame Jews for the first murder and also link it with the second murder by virtue of the apron section.

Why? Well its possible that antisemitic feelings were still ripe from the Leather Apron rumors and they suggested that a mad Jew was the Whitechapel murderer. By providing evidence from the Mitre Square murder a person might be intending to continue that kind of belief, inciting more bad feelings towards the Jews.

[Beowulf]

Though there has been a lot of weathering over the years, paint, etc. still, it might be interesting to see what could show up if someone were to try a little luminal on the GSG wall.

[RivkahChaya]

Hi.
I agree that there is a Jewish angle to the murders, and I believe that Annie Chapman was put to death because she was soliciting on the Sabbath, the same applying to Stride, however the killer could not satisfy his lust, so took it out on poor Kate, who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I therefore dismiss Tabram, also Nichols, and Mary Kelly as victims of the same killer, who were not killed on the Sabbath ,
Therefore I am suggesting that the graffiti was the frustration of the killer of Stride, in being disturbed.
'He who breaks the Sabbath shall be put to death''
Regards Richard.

Uh, no. First of all, Jews do not care what gentiles do on Shabbes. Have you ever heard of a Shabbes goy? In some Jewish communities, there was a goy who was on retainer to go around in the winter and light everybody's stove on Shabbes, if it went out (or stoke it), so no one froze to death. He was paid on another day, and came around without being called, just made regular rounds, so no Jew solicited anything on Shabbes.

I know Jewish doctors who work every Saturday night and Sunday in emergency rooms, and have a trade-off with a gentile doctor who covers Friday night and Saturdays.

Unless a gentile prostitute was very aggressively and specifically targeting Jewish clients on Friday night and Saturday during the day (Saturday night is not Shabbes), there is no reason that a Jew would care what she was doing.

More importantly, committing a murder is profane all by itself, and committing one on Shabbes, particularly profane, not to mention, if a Jew cared what gentiles are doing on Shabbes, he is making a lot of work for policemen and the coroner.

If a psychotic Jew, in some state of religious mania, wanted to murder women who worked as prostitutes on Shabbes, he would probably make note of who was doing it, and return for them at another time, but really, what the heck is a religious Jew doing prowling the streets on Shabbes? A religiously observant family will note the absence of a member on Shabbes.

[RivkahChaya]

Cripes, is that really exactly where the graffito was? I've never had a good picture in my mind, because I've never been in Whitechapel, except on Ripper tour almost 30 years ago, and the guide didn't point out a specific spot for the graffito. I always picture it where it is in Murder by Decree, but I just got chills when I saw that, because that's where a mezuzah would go.



Before anybody runs to far afield with that, though, let me go on.

Interpreting your question as being about the literal translation of the words themselves and taking JTR out of the equation, then I have to agree that no.3 seems the most likely :

"The Jews will not take the blame for anything"
or in my mind
"The Jews won't be blamed for anything"

I agree that this is the most likely meaning, or more simply, "Jews can get away with anything." Thinking specifically how the police were worried about riots, the writer may have been of the opinion that the police coddled the Jewish area of town.

If JTR wrote the graffito, he may have had an interest in misleading the police into thinking he was Jewish, because after the Leather Apron riots, he thought the police would continue to tread lightly as long as they were looking for a Jewish suspect. Or he may just have been an anti-Semite, who in general did believe that the Jews "got away with (figuratively), murder," on a regular basis, and enjoyed the idea that the police were looking for a Jewish suspect, for once, ironically in a case where the culprit was not Jewish.

Now, as for the specific wording, the misspelling, and the placement on the post: I think that the writer is making fun of the way native Yiddish speakers speak English. Placing the direct object before the verb, overuse of the definite article, and double negatives are all characteristics of a Yiddish accent. Misuse of pronouns is characteristic of any second-language speaker.

So, instead of "Jews never get blamed for anything," you get "The Jews." A better parody would be "Not for nothing will those Jews ever take the blame," but I didn't say our guy was good. He knows that Jews say "the men" when they should say "them," or "those," so he constructs the klutzy "The Jews are the men." He gets most of his sentence in before the main verb, so it sounds right to him, even if it isn't quite right, and he sticks in the double negative. He also misspells "Jews," to insinuate that the immigrants are so ignorant, they can't even spell their own word for themselves correctly.

And writes it on the doorpost of the new Jewish building.

[moonbegger]

MB,

The unforgivable part is that you actually recorded these anagrams somewhere as if hoping one day you'd be able to use them. Think about the madness in that.

Mike

Hi Mike ,

As a Great man once said ..

" Success is moving from one disaster to another , with Enthusiasm "


Ching,Ching,

Moonbegger .