'the biggest blunder in the search for Jack the Ripper'

[Hunter]

The medical experts claimed that Kates killer showed less skill and knowledge than shown in the C1and C2 murders and Marys INDOOR murder required only a maniac with a knife.

That is a common misconception.

I believe the evidence shows that at the very least 2 different men were involved in the Canonical 5 and that the focus exhibited in the first 2 Canonicals is clear. The motive, as it were. Murder for the purpose of abdominal mutilation and abdominal organ extraction. I dont believe its as clear in the later murders, which is why no medical expert suggested a similar motive to the first 2 killings with Canonical victims 3 through 5.

That last sentence is another common misconception.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Hunter,

Ill have to ask you to provide some proof of your misconception labels mate.

To my knowledge senior medical opinion by someone who saw more dead Canonicals first hand than anyone stated that the killer of Kate was not skilled nor particularly knowledgeable. For my part I cant see why a man who extracts a kidney through her front in the dark inside 8 minutes wouldnt be considered skilled...but I didnt see and examine the dead women. He did.

On the second statement again, to my knowledge, no senior medical official linked any Canonical death by perceived ulterior motive other than Polly and Annie. With Liz thats clearly evident, with Kate the "business model" exhibited in C1 and C2 changes as does the skill and knowledge, not to mention jurisdiction.... and with Mary its impossible to state with any authority that the killer sought to mutilate her abdomen and extract and take abdominal organs. As was fairly clearly evident to the authorities in the first 2 murders.

All the best Hunter,

Mike R

[Hunter]

Hi Mike,

The story about the medico you refer to and the misconception is coming soon.

One quick note, however, on the second point. Both Mr. Bond and Mr. Brown did give a motive to the killer they believed murdered more than just Nichols and Chapman. They called his condition 'satyriasis.' Even Percy Clark, who stated to an East End Observer reporter that he attributed 3 murders to one man apparently was including Kelly because he showed the now infamous photo of Kelly to the reporter as he was describing the Ripper murders as the work of a 'homicidal maniac.'

[curious]

One quick note, however, on the second point. Both Mr. Bond and Mr. Brown did give a motive to the killer they believed murdered more than just Nichols and Chapman. They called his condition 'satyriasis.'

Hi, Hunter,
Thanks for giving the condition a name. Now, where can we find an explanation of the condition as the doctors would have understood it in 1888?

The current usage that I have found (with what I admit was cursory research) does not fit my observation of the JtR killings.

Thanks,

curious

[Jon Guy]

Hi Hunter

Even Percy Clark, who stated to an East End Observer reporter that he attributed 3 murders to one man apparently was including Kelly because he showed the now infamous photo of Kelly to the reporter as he was describing the Ripper murders as the work of a 'homicidal maniac.'

Would not the 3 murders relate to the only 3 victims that Dr Phillips and Dr Clark were called to, Chapman, Stride and Kelly? McKenzie not considered a Ripper victim by Phillips.

[lynn cates]

Verdict: guilty of Freud

Hello Cris, Velma. The condition, "satyriasis," is the male analogue of the female condition "nymphomania." Or so I have been given to understand.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Cris, Velma. The condition, "satyriasis," is the male analogue of the female condition "nymphomania." Or so I have been given to understand.

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
Thanks. That is what I found as well. In addition, it seems to accompany bipolar disorder often enough to be remarked on.

However, since none of the women displayed signs of "recent connection" and these violent crimes were labeled "sexual" because of the killer's concentration on the female "lady parts" (as I understand it) what I read about satyriasis does not seem to match the JtR crimes particularly.

So, I wondered if it was considered differently 124 years ago. Time has seen a drastic change in knowledge in mental issues since 1888.

I know Hunter has done extensive research in that area and hoped he might know the symptoms of satyriasis as the doctors in 1888 might have considered the disease.

[lynn cates]

old definition

Hello Velma. Thanks. That would be interesting indeed.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

Lynn is correct. In its literal sense, satyriasis is the male equivalent of nymphomania. Krafft-Ebing adds that it is a perversion of the sexual instinct that can, on occasion be dangerous to women. In other words a sexual fantasy beyond a natural desire for copulation... and even replacing that desire by other means. In this respect it is different than a mere fetish.

Here's a quote from Lombroso's interview with Vincent Verzeni, who's crimes came before the Ripper murders but were similar in nature. He was diagnosed with satyriasis:


"I took the clothing and intestines, because of the pleasure it gave me to smell and touch them. At last my mother came to suspect me, because she noticed spots of semen on my shirt after each murder or attempt at one."

One can see why Thomas Bond and Gordon Brown referred to this 'condition sexually' in describing the motive for the Ripper murders. During this time forensic pathology and criminal psychology were of a limited study. Very few practicing surgeons - especially police surgeons - had even studied this at all. As far as forensics were concerned, it was basically on the job experience for the police surgeons.

With criminal psychology, Thomas Bond was one of the few who was considered well versed in this field. That is why Anderson called him in to review these murders. Bond was special counsel for CO in these matters and had previously been called in on special cases when Monro had been head of CID. I'm certain that Monro - behind the scenes - had advised Anderson about Bond after the latter's return to SY in mid October.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Hunter,

The theory put forward fits in layman's terms to a madman, as I suggested the 3 murders I omit were considered committed by. A go-to answer when they had no idea what was actually happening. This was not terminology used when referring to the first 2 cases and the probable motive, it was to cut open the women and remove internal organs from their abdomen. Yes, the killer would have to be criminally insane, but not necessarily in any overt way.

To suggest that as a motive in Liz Strides case is pure speculative, there is no evidence that suggests mutilation was intended or desired....the opinion as to a continued presence of skill and anatomical knowledge with Kates killer is that there was not any, both Bond and Phillips assigned no particular talent to her killer....and Marys killer took her heart even though the abdomen was in essence emptied and the contents just there for the taking...including an excised uterus.

I believe that the officials Ripper streak or Canonical Group likely has more to do with uninformed parties than it does with obvious matching motives among the dead women.

Best regards,

Mike R

[curious]

Krafft-Ebing adds that it is a perversion of the sexual instinct that can, on occasion be dangerous to women. In other words a sexual fantasy beyond a natural desire for copulation... and even replacing that desire by other means. In this respect it is different than a mere fetish.

Here's a quote from Lombroso's interview with Vincent Verzeni, who's crimes came before the Ripper murders but were similar in nature. He was diagnosed with satyriasis:


"I took the clothing and intestines, because of the pleasure it gave me to smell and touch them. At last my mother came to suspect me, because she noticed spots of semen on my shirt after each murder or attempt at one."

Thank you, Hunter,
You explained it in such a way that I think I understand it, plus gave me an example.

excellent!

I do remember about Bond being called in as an expert to review everything.

Thanks!

[Bridewell]

Thanks

Sorry for the delay in responding, but I believe 2 victims had Irish-related backgrounds and the first used variations of the second's name and address twice in her last 24 hours. Kate and Mary.

Hi Mike,

No worries re the delayed reply. I'm bemused by the 'twice' (or forgetful).

Once was when she gave the name 'Mary Ann Kelly' to the police. Which was the other?

Any thoughts as to what the facial mutilation of Kate would mean? It's clearly not relevant to an attempt to disguise her demise as a 'Ripper' murder, so what do you think was the point? A message or warning of some kind?

Regards, Bridewell

[Phil Carter]

Hi all!
Is Phil the only one who has put forward the theory that a policeman was the killer of Eddowes?
Carol

Hello Carol,


Please do point out and quote EXACTLY where I have in any way suggested that a policeman was the killer?
the nearest I can see I have come is asking 'Who would YOU trust? Hmmm'

that could easily mean a doctor, amongst many others.

I have previously suggested that had it NOT been for the fact that Halse was a policeman, he would have been in a prime position to have dumped the rag in GS.

So do tell me where I have suggested or even inferred the KILLER of Catherine Eddowes was a policeman?

For the record- I have no idea whom the killers involved in the WM were. NOR do I really care. I just want to blow away some of the hogwash served up through the years.

As it stands, unless original OFFICIAL documentation turns up against Druitt, Kosminski, PAV, Sickert, Tumblety et al then the simple conclusion is that NONE had anything to do with all this.
If it does-great! Until then I will continue to question the stuff we have been fed and continue to be fed as gospel- just to keep the wagon wheels in Ripperology going.

Yes-it's cynicle. But some of us long in the tooth are like that.

Best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

Fenian language

Hello Phil. Are you suggesting that the standard view is CVMMTIJU? (if you'll forgive my adverting to Fenian code . . .)

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

"Hello Cris, Velma. The condition, "satyriasis," is the male analogue of the female condition "nymphomania." Or so I have been given to understand." he said satyriastically.

Mike

Somewhere near the haughs o' Cromdale