'the biggest blunder in the search for Jack the Ripper'

[Michael W Richards]

Hi towboydds,

"It seems to me that there are many words thrown around that a firm grasp of what they entail does not fit to how they are being used".

Since you quoted me I will assume you question my use of the words "madman" and criminally insane. In the context of my quote and in the context of a laymans comments which it was clarified as, I believe the words were and are adequate.

"Insanity does not allow for any style of organization to which the '5' murders attributed most frequently to 'JtR' show a large part of."

Are you suggesting there are no organized criminally Insane murderers? Surely not. Are you suggesting that we have a series of murders that were committed in organized fashion and that can be accurately attributed to one person? I would hope not, thats still pure speculation 120 odd years later.

"In all of it, the evolution of each murder looked at separately is not seen, and it must be discovered in order to see what path is being taken in the first place in order to see the end result which is the canonical 5 (as it has been reported over and over)."

The assumption here is that one man "evolved"....thats again, pure speculation.

"The most obvious of all things is that there are reports to other crimes that could give an insight into how the escalation happened, but has been ignored for 124 years because finding the base line, or even a stressor is not as important than one voicing an opinion about who they believe did it, most of the time without irrefutable proof. "

Again the unproven speculation that one man "evolved", and whats been missing or ignored for 124 years is the realization that the Canonical Group are not murders connected by any solid evidence, and there has been little if any analysis of the murders as independent acts, which despite modern and contemporary opinion, they most certainly are from a criminal standpoint.

"Not trying to discount your theory, more to the point that what was believed as insane 125 years ago is nothing more than a bad diet today. Treatable "Mental Illness" is at an all time high, and more and more people are being diagnosed with some type of disorder. Not to say that everyone is a bit crazy, but more to say everyone is a bit imbalanced with their own chemical output. So to get a balancing act on our chemical output helps each individual with their own cognitive reasoning abilities."

So you understand I have no "theory" and I use the word Insane to broadly cover the spectrum of potential mental illnesses known. As a layman would.

I respectfully suggest looking for signs that one man modified his behavior to explain the inconsistencies in murders C3 thru C5 assumes the validity of the Canonical Group, something which I obviously do not.

Best regards,

Mike R

[lynn cates]

linkage

Hello Errata. Sex linked to dementia? I like it (er, the link).

Cheers.
LC

[towboydds]

Insane?.....

Hi Hunter,

The theory put forward fits in layman's terms to a madman, as I suggested the 3 murders I omit were considered committed by. A go-to answer when they had no idea what was actually happening. This was not terminology used when referring to the first 2 cases and the probable motive, it was to cut open the women and remove internal organs from their abdomen. Yes, the killer would have to be criminally insane, but not necessarily in any overt way.

To suggest that as a motive in Liz Strides case is pure speculative, there is no evidence that suggests mutilation was intended or desired....the opinion as to a continued presence of skill and anatomical knowledge with Kates killer is that there was not any, both Bond and Phillips assigned no particular talent to her killer....and Marys killer took her heart even though the abdomen was in essence emptied and the contents just there for the taking...including an excised uterus.

I believe that the officials Ripper streak or Canonical Group likely has more to do with uninformed parties than it does with obvious matching motives among the dead women.

Best regards,

Mike R

It seems to me that there are many words thrown around that a firm grasp of what they entail does not fit to how they are being used. Insanity does not allow for any style of organization to which the '5' murders attributed most frequently to 'JtR' show a large part of. In all of it, the evolution of each murder looked at separately is not seen, and it must be discovered in order to see what path is being taken in the first place in order to see the end result which is the canonical 5 (as it has been reported over and over).

The most obvious of all things is that there are reports to other crimes that could give an insight into how the escalation happened, but has been ignored for 124 years because finding the base line, or even a stressor is not as important than one voicing an opinion about who they believe did it, most of the time without irrefutable proof.

Not trying to discount your theory, more to the point that what was believed as insane 125 years ago is nothing more than a bad diet today. Treatable "Mental Illness" is at an all time high, and more and more people are being diagnosed with some type of disorder. Not to say that everyone is a bit crazy, but more to say everyone is a bit imbalanced with their own chemical output. So to get a balancing act on our chemical output helps each individual with their own cognitive reasoning abilities.

[Errata]

Hello Cris, Velma. The condition, "satyriasis," is the male analogue of the female condition "nymphomania." Or so I have been given to understand.

Cheers.
LC

One of the problems with hypersexuality is that it is almost universally a disorganized symptom. There are several models of hypersexuality (compulsive, impulsive, etc.) but all of them boil down to two causes. The first is some kind of dementia, where a person loses any grasp on socially accepted behavior. Such people will also urinate in the corner, shout all the time, no filters. The second is an intense need to fulfill a desire immediately, and the need is so intense that the sufferer doesn't have time or the control to pursue socially acceptable channels.

Basically, their state of mind is such that they can do very little to avoid capture. And Verzeni is a perfect example of that. And I'm not saying that JtR was some kind of Jackal like organized killer. But he did have more than enough control to proceed as though he were committing a crime, and would therefore need to avoid witnesses, have an avenue of escape, work quickly, etc. Satyriasis doesn't provide that kind of control. The best you can do is try to minimize the damage after the fact.

[The Good Michael]

"Hello Cris, Velma. The condition, "satyriasis," is the male analogue of the female condition "nymphomania." Or so I have been given to understand." he said satyriastically.

Mike

Somewhere near the haughs o' Cromdale

[lynn cates]

Fenian language

Hello Phil. Are you suggesting that the standard view is CVMMTIJU? (if you'll forgive my adverting to Fenian code . . .)

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

Hi all!
Is Phil the only one who has put forward the theory that a policeman was the killer of Eddowes?
Carol

Hello Carol,


Please do point out and quote EXACTLY where I have in any way suggested that a policeman was the killer?
the nearest I can see I have come is asking 'Who would YOU trust? Hmmm'

that could easily mean a doctor, amongst many others.

I have previously suggested that had it NOT been for the fact that Halse was a policeman, he would have been in a prime position to have dumped the rag in GS.

So do tell me where I have suggested or even inferred the KILLER of Catherine Eddowes was a policeman?

For the record- I have no idea whom the killers involved in the WM were. NOR do I really care. I just want to blow away some of the hogwash served up through the years.

As it stands, unless original OFFICIAL documentation turns up against Druitt, Kosminski, PAV, Sickert, Tumblety et al then the simple conclusion is that NONE had anything to do with all this.
If it does-great! Until then I will continue to question the stuff we have been fed and continue to be fed as gospel- just to keep the wagon wheels in Ripperology going.

Yes-it's cynicle. But some of us long in the tooth are like that.

Best wishes

Phil

[Bridewell]

Thanks

Sorry for the delay in responding, but I believe 2 victims had Irish-related backgrounds and the first used variations of the second's name and address twice in her last 24 hours. Kate and Mary.

Hi Mike,

No worries re the delayed reply. I'm bemused by the 'twice' (or forgetful).

Once was when she gave the name 'Mary Ann Kelly' to the police. Which was the other?

Any thoughts as to what the facial mutilation of Kate would mean? It's clearly not relevant to an attempt to disguise her demise as a 'Ripper' murder, so what do you think was the point? A message or warning of some kind?

Regards, Bridewell

[curious]

Krafft-Ebing adds that it is a perversion of the sexual instinct that can, on occasion be dangerous to women. In other words a sexual fantasy beyond a natural desire for copulation... and even replacing that desire by other means. In this respect it is different than a mere fetish.

Here's a quote from Lombroso's interview with Vincent Verzeni, who's crimes came before the Ripper murders but were similar in nature. He was diagnosed with satyriasis:


"I took the clothing and intestines, because of the pleasure it gave me to smell and touch them. At last my mother came to suspect me, because she noticed spots of semen on my shirt after each murder or attempt at one."

Thank you, Hunter,
You explained it in such a way that I think I understand it, plus gave me an example.

excellent!

I do remember about Bond being called in as an expert to review everything.

Thanks!

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Hunter,

The theory put forward fits in layman's terms to a madman, as I suggested the 3 murders I omit were considered committed by. A go-to answer when they had no idea what was actually happening. This was not terminology used when referring to the first 2 cases and the probable motive, it was to cut open the women and remove internal organs from their abdomen. Yes, the killer would have to be criminally insane, but not necessarily in any overt way.

To suggest that as a motive in Liz Strides case is pure speculative, there is no evidence that suggests mutilation was intended or desired....the opinion as to a continued presence of skill and anatomical knowledge with Kates killer is that there was not any, both Bond and Phillips assigned no particular talent to her killer....and Marys killer took her heart even though the abdomen was in essence emptied and the contents just there for the taking...including an excised uterus.

I believe that the officials Ripper streak or Canonical Group likely has more to do with uninformed parties than it does with obvious matching motives among the dead women.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Hunter]

Lynn is correct. In its literal sense, satyriasis is the male equivalent of nymphomania. Krafft-Ebing adds that it is a perversion of the sexual instinct that can, on occasion be dangerous to women. In other words a sexual fantasy beyond a natural desire for copulation... and even replacing that desire by other means. In this respect it is different than a mere fetish.

Here's a quote from Lombroso's interview with Vincent Verzeni, who's crimes came before the Ripper murders but were similar in nature. He was diagnosed with satyriasis:


"I took the clothing and intestines, because of the pleasure it gave me to smell and touch them. At last my mother came to suspect me, because she noticed spots of semen on my shirt after each murder or attempt at one."

One can see why Thomas Bond and Gordon Brown referred to this 'condition sexually' in describing the motive for the Ripper murders. During this time forensic pathology and criminal psychology were of a limited study. Very few practicing surgeons - especially police surgeons - had even studied this at all. As far as forensics were concerned, it was basically on the job experience for the police surgeons.

With criminal psychology, Thomas Bond was one of the few who was considered well versed in this field. That is why Anderson called him in to review these murders. Bond was special counsel for CO in these matters and had previously been called in on special cases when Monro had been head of CID. I'm certain that Monro - behind the scenes - had advised Anderson about Bond after the latter's return to SY in mid October.

[lynn cates]

old definition

Hello Velma. Thanks. That would be interesting indeed.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Cris, Velma. The condition, "satyriasis," is the male analogue of the female condition "nymphomania." Or so I have been given to understand.

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
Thanks. That is what I found as well. In addition, it seems to accompany bipolar disorder often enough to be remarked on.

However, since none of the women displayed signs of "recent connection" and these violent crimes were labeled "sexual" because of the killer's concentration on the female "lady parts" (as I understand it) what I read about satyriasis does not seem to match the JtR crimes particularly.

So, I wondered if it was considered differently 124 years ago. Time has seen a drastic change in knowledge in mental issues since 1888.

I know Hunter has done extensive research in that area and hoped he might know the symptoms of satyriasis as the doctors in 1888 might have considered the disease.

[lynn cates]

Verdict: guilty of Freud

Hello Cris, Velma. The condition, "satyriasis," is the male analogue of the female condition "nymphomania." Or so I have been given to understand.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Hunter

Even Percy Clark, who stated to an East End Observer reporter that he attributed 3 murders to one man apparently was including Kelly because he showed the now infamous photo of Kelly to the reporter as he was describing the Ripper murders as the work of a 'homicidal maniac.'

Would not the 3 murders relate to the only 3 victims that Dr Phillips and Dr Clark were called to, Chapman, Stride and Kelly? McKenzie not considered a Ripper victim by Phillips.