The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, city PC Lewis Robinson 931 identified either the apron section which was on Kate when found or the piece from The Model Homes, as the one he saw Kate wearing earlier. As to my suggestion the Goulston piece was about 2 x 2, Im still looking for that reference But I can assure you it does exist. A Pernos suggestion of maybe 3-4 square feet is probably about right. Substantial, and impractical for any menstrual flow issues...if that's what this issue is to you.

Unless there is something identifiable about an apron, how can you tell one from the other? the identification made by that officer is ridiculous, and if it was as big as you suggest there would have been cuts and tears in it in line with the cuts seen on the rest of the clothing and it would have been bloodied the mortuary piece was neither.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Michael W Richards]

Trevor, city PC Lewis Robinson 931 identified either the apron section which was on Kate when found or the piece from The Model Homes, as the one he saw Kate wearing earlier. As to my suggestion the Goulston piece was about 2 x 2, Im still looking for that reference But I can assure you it does exist. A Pernos suggestion of maybe 3-4 square feet is probably about right. Substantial, and impractical for any menstrual flow issues...if that's what this issue is to you.

[Sam Flynn]

It's an example of the discrepancies in the newspaper reports, more like. What we have to do is make sense of them, and whatever official records survive.

[Trevor Marriott]

Why does all this matter about Halse being present, is it only because he noticed the remnant of apron on her body?, Collard says much the same thing, (ie; "the piece was found outside her dress") and, Collard was there, right?

Its another example of the discrepancies in much of the witness testimony, not just with this murder but with regards to them all.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Why does all this matter about Halse being present, is it only because he noticed the remnant of apron on her body?, Collard says much the same thing, (ie; "the piece was found outside her dress") and, Collard was there, right?

Insp Collard states " I produce a portion of apron she was apparently wearing" Now his list of her clothing makes no mention of her actually wearing and apron, which would have been visible when the body was stripped and listed as being part of her clothes. It could not have been missed if she had been wearing it

The first item of clothing to be removed in order of the list would have been the black cloth jacket, the next item would have been the chintz skirt. Now if she had been wearing an apron, that apron would have been under the jacket, and over the skirt, and clearly visible.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

Hey people,
We are discussing her apron and her final movements trying to fill the gaps before the discovery of the graffito, but have wondered from the original topic of this board. Shouldn't we start a new one or add to a more appropriate one?

Please.

[Wickerman]

You are the one who keeps posing misleading posts !

I will stick to the original signed depositions and treat the newspapers reports with caution

As an example Insp Collard in his official inquest testimony makes no mention of Dc Halse being present when the body was stripped.

In his inquest testimony as reported by the daily telegraph he also makes no mention of Dc Halse being present when the body was stripped.

Yet good old Dc Halse states he was there, and conveniently notices a piece of her apron missing, even though the Gs piece had not yet been found ! out of all the things relative to the body at that time he just happen to notice a piece of apron missing.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Why does all this matter about Halse being present, is it only because he noticed the remnant of apron on her body?, Collard says much the same thing, (ie; "the piece was found outside her dress") and, Collard was there, right?

[Leanne]

Hey people,
We are discussing her apron and her final movements trying to fill the gaps before the discovery of the graffito, but have wondered from the original topic of this board. Shouldn't we start a new one or add to a more appropriate one?

[APerno]

This is from: A Piece of Apron, Some Chalk Graffiti and a Lost Hour by Jon Smyth

Also, Sir Henry Smith, though heavily critisized for being inaccurate in some statements, was at least known to be present for this report:

By this time the stretcher had arrived, and when we got the body to the mortuary, the first discovery we made was that about one-half of the apron was missing. It had been severed by a clean cut'.

- (Sir Henry Smith, From Constable to Commissioner - pg 152)

P.C. Long had found 'about half of it' or, if we allow for a little error in judgement on the high side we have 5-6 square feet, and if we allow for error on the low side, something in the order of 3-4 square feet. That is a sizable piece of cloth.

[Leanne]

The apron section found at Goulston was matched with the remaining apron Kate was wearing by the repair marks....so, why is this posing a problem? This was not a small piece either, it was around 2 x 2 if recollection serves.

She made that repair herself because she intended to sell it. What was she doing putting it back on?

[Leanne]

That's why he cut the apron in her pocket and didn't simply use one of the 12 rags.

[Leanne]

…….An orange seller enters Petticoat Lane early, tells her she doesn't have to sell her apron if she does him a favour...……….

[Leanne]

Although I'm sure she would have done the odd bit of sewing for cash now and then.
The tea and sugar were purchased from the proceeds of pawning John Kelly's boots;

"I pawned a pair of boots on Saturday morning for half a crown, out of which she bought some tea and sugar. We had some drink together, and by the time she left me for Bermondsey we had spent the 2s 6d in drink and food.... My missus pawned the boots, and I stood outside the shop with bare feet."

Since Kate still had the pawn ticket with her when she died, I've always wondered how (or even if) Kelly got some replacement boots....

Perhaps she intended to buy his boots back for him, even if it meant selling her apron.

[Trevor Marriott]

That last line may not be correct.
But, let me ask you this. If the coroner decides which witnesses he needs for the inquest, how does the City coroner do that if he has no idea what the witnesses saw?

Back to that last line.
I guess you had not noticed that PC Long had his report with him?, not his pocketbook, but his report. He was consulting his report to reply to questions from the court.
So he was not giving evidence "off the cuff".

Like I mentioned to you before, the press provide more detail than the court recorder. You might make fewer errors if you consult the press versions before you post.

You are the one who keeps posing misleading posts !

I will stick to the original signed depositions and treat the newspapers reports with caution

As an example Insp Collard in his official inquest testimony makes no mention of Dc Halse being present when the body was stripped.

In his inquest testimony as reported by the daily telegraph he also makes no mention of Dc Halse being present when the body was stripped.

Yet good old Dc Halse states he was there, and conveniently notices a piece of her apron missing, even though the Gs piece had not yet been found ! out of all the things relative to the body at that time he just happen to notice a piece of apron missing.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Leanne]

It's a nice thought, but as others have said, the market would have been closed by the time she was released, and didn't open again until early morning

Giving her enough time to mend the apron so she could sell it.

(Halse said that they were just beginning to set up stalls when the grafitto was wiped away, about 05:30)

So she would have had about four hours to drink her tea and mend the apron.

The apron she was wearing when she left the station, less than an hour before she was found murdered. If you think she got another one from somewhere in that time, what happened to the one round her waist?

OK, she didn't necessarily get another apron, but she took it off to patch up and possibly sell, put it in her pocket to look for another customer of her body, found the wrong one...….

Since Kate still had the pawn ticket with her when she died, I've always wondered how (or even if) Kelly got some replacement boots....

Maybe he had to sell himself!!!!!!