The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Cogidubnus]

I think I must've left my thinking head in bed today...Not a trick question, but could somebody please remind me where we get the evidence of the size of the writing which comprised the GSG? I can't seem to locate it...we're not abstractly deducing this, I hope, from the size of the doorjamb?

Thanks

Dave

[APerno]

How did Halse know exactly where the rag was?
Only Long saw it in situ

Good point!

[Jon Guy]

"It was not there" is hardly expressing a "vehement belief". Long could easily have overlooked the apron whilst sincerely believing it wasn't there, even if it was. At least Halse was man enough to admit that he might have missed it when he himself passed by "as it was in the passage".

How did Halse know exactly where the rag was?
Only Long saw it in situ

[Jon Guy]

This is the article from Lloyds, 9/8/88, describing the scenes in and around Hanbury Street on the day of Annie Chapman`s murder.
As you can see, the local Jewish population were getting a hard time regarding the recent murders.
This could be the BLAME the message GSG relates to. (It may seem tenuous to us a century later, but for someone living on those streets at that time the message is pretty obvious)
These are the scenes Supt Arnold wanted to avoid when he ordered the GSG erased.

FFS.. here`s a link to a readable copy:

https://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=274940#post274940

[Sam Flynn]

that it was dropped on his way home from the murder... seems improbable by Longs vehement belief "it was not there" at 2:20

"It was not there" is hardly expressing a "vehement belief". Long could easily have overlooked the apron whilst sincerely believing it wasn't there, even if it was. At least Halse was man enough to admit that he might have missed it when he himself passed by "as it was in the passage".

that he cut and tore a section of apron in what was essentially an echo chamber

If you're suggesting that the cutting of cloth would have echoed around Mitre Square like a clap of thunder, and would therefore be a very risky thing to do, perhaps you should reconsider.

...just so he could have a rag to wipe up. One that would then have shite on it.

There's no "just" about wiping up, if you've used one or both of your hands to smear freshly-released faeces over a woman's extruded intestines.

And why hang around the body or the crime scene, if you realise that you could soon be caught red-and-brown handed?

[Michael W Richards]

The idea that he just used it to clean up implies 2 things which are serious obstacles...1, that it was dropped on his way home from the murder, something that seems improbable by Longs vehement belief "it was not there" at 2:20. 2, that he cut and tore a section of apron in what was essentially and echo chamber, at around 1:35am, while over someone he just killed and gutted, just so he could have a rag to wipe up. One that would then have shite on it.

I believe the risk he took in cutting that apron section reveals it was to be used for some important reason, he could have just wiped his hands on his own hanky or Kate, and that the timing of its appearance suggests that the killer came to that spot almost an hour after the murder.

[Wickerman]

Have they, would like to read some.

Besides do you think that they would ever say satisfaction or guilt? -- Claiming a 'high' almost sounds like a psychopath's cliche.

I wonder how many of them actually felt like **** when it was over.

All psychopaths are con artists and know how to work their audience, even the media.

I remember one interview with a gangster hit man; he spoke of remorse as if he was having a moment of clarity, but that was probably a con too; all Ted Bundy ever claimed was that he was drunk and couldn't really remember.

I'll bet there is a better chance of an adrenaline high from a spree killer than a serial killer.

Anyway I don't think it is a slam dunk to conclude that all serial killers feel a 'high' after they kill; maybe, maybe not, but it sounds kind of Hollywood, or better yet, what the caught killer believes makes him sound 'cool.' In an odd way it is kind of an excuse.

How about some psychological studies, not popular media interviews.

It doesn't need to be every serial killer, just this one. And, not every serial killer will respond the same.
It is well understood by many researchers how this type of killer see's confrontation as a thrill, the killing is often a release, and after the kill he is on a high for a short period. There's no shortage of articles available on the net if you doubt it happens.
What any normal person would see as dangerous the psychopath takes as a challenge.

[APerno]

Killers have told us, those that were caught. What better source is there?

Have they, would like to read some.

Besides do you think that they would ever say satisfaction or guilt? -- Claiming a 'high' almost sounds like a psychopath's cliche.

I wonder how many of them actually felt like **** when it was over.

All psychopaths are con artists and know how to work their audience, even the media.

I remember one interview with a gangster hit man; he spoke of remorse as if he was having a moment of clarity, but that was probably a con too; all Ted Bundy ever claimed was that he was drunk and couldn't really remember.

I'll bet there is a better chance of an adrenaline high from a spree killer than a serial killer.

Anyway I don't think it is a slam dunk to conclude that all serial killers feel a 'high' after they kill; maybe, maybe not, but it sounds kind of Hollywood, or better yet, what the caught killer believes makes him sound 'cool.' In an odd way it is kind of an excuse.

How about some psychological studies, not popular media interviews.

[Abby Normal]

Tell you what, Abs, let's put it to the test. I'll take a dump on my hand and squidge it around for a bit, then I'll see how long it takes to wipe it on my clothes. On second thoughts, best not

No no I insist ; )

[Sam Flynn]

hi sam
nah. someone who had just murdered someone and had blood and or crap on there hands would want it off asap for obvious reasons. He would have just taken a couple of seconds to wipe off on her clothes right then when he got it on him.

Tell you what, Abs, let's put it to the test. I'll take a dump on my hand and squidge it around for a bit, then I'll see how long it takes to wipe it on my clothes. On second thoughts, best not

[Sam Flynn]

This blue line is a long, long way to be just wiping your hands.

I don't see him wiping his hands as he goes along, though. I see him wrapping the cloth round his $hitty hand, putting enough distance between himself and the crime scene, to a sheltered doorway where he can scrub up more thoroughly and far safely than he could on the open street.

[Abby Normal]

It's only a few minutes' walk, and far enough from Mitre Square to be clear of the bizzies but without going too far. That, and the fact that Wentworth Dwellings had open entrance passageways to duck into strikes me as a perfect place to stop and scrub up.

hi sam
nah. someone who had just murdered someone and had blood and or crap on there hands would want it off asap for obvious reasons. He would have just taken a couple of seconds to wipe off on her clothes right then when he got it on him.
he cut that apron off for a purpose and not necessarily to wipe his hands later.

im liking more and more a scenario where he had to use a rag he had brought with him originally for organ carrying to wipe his hands after the failed stride attempt (church street sighting) and discard that one, and needed something else to carry the organs home in so he cut her apron for that.
He gets home with his goodies, cleans up a bit drops off knife, stewing about the jews interrupting him all night long, realizes hes got an obvious clue to eddowes murdr and heads back out after grabbing some chalk for a little pay back and subterfuge.

Its fits all the evidence, explains the missing time (Long) and is a reasonable explanation for everything.

[Wickerman]

Not with his hand(s) smeared in fresh excrement. There's nothing simple, or quick, about removing that.

But blood doesn't wipe off.
An occasional stain, fine. But if you've had your hands immersed in someone abdomen, handling organs, they're covered in blood. No matter how much you wipe your hands they remain sticky. You can't get it all off, you have to wash it off.
Just my ex-butcher days coming back to mind, I hate sticky hands.

[Wickerman]

It's only a few minutes' walk, and far enough from Mitre Square to be clear of the bizzies but without going too far. That, and the fact that Wentworth Dwellings had open entrance passageways to duck into strikes me as a perfect place to stop and scrub up.

It doesn't sound too far when you say it fast

This blue line is a long, long way to be just wiping your hands.
He passed hundreds of opportunities to ditch that rag, yet he held onto it street after street.

[Wickerman]

How do we know a murderer, who has just killed, is filled with adrenaline? Maybe it is like sex, maybe there is a satisfaction and a quiet fatigue that follows? I have never murdered anyone; are there psychological studies that claim such adrenaline occurs?

Killers have told us, those that were caught. What better source is there?