Sweet violets

[Mayerling]

Hi Freaky Jeff,
Interesting suggestion that the song was some sort of aphrodisiac!
I might counter though, by saying; what with alcohol having a depressive effect at times, and as there are several reports of Kelly being unhappy in the days before her death, the slightly more maudlin tune "A violet from Mothers grave" might equally have sprung to her lips.

I also read that article, and found dozens of versions of the song, but none of them seem to bear much relation to the original lyrics as printed in the PMG. They only seem to share one line, and try as I might I couldn't make the original words scan with the later versions. I'm not the greatest of singers, though. Is there any sheet music for Sweet Violets anywhere? Not that I could read it, but someone might be able to and see if it's the same song as the later, saucier versions.

Hi Joshua,

The lyrics from the PMG seem to be the same as those on the sheet music that David located. So I assume those are the original lyrics. On the other hand, they might not be the ones performed on state by the composer - he may have used that trick I mentioned, although it would seem hard to believe. I am aware though that had the lyrics been risqué, the policy of the Pall Mall Gazette under it's puritanical editor Mr. Stead would have prevented publishing the risqué version of the song at all.

Jeff

[David Orsam]

There is also a possibility that no one heard Kelly sing about violets.

How is that even a possibility?

Only by (a) ignoring the inquest evidence and (b) ignoring the newspaper reports that you seem to be relying on to challenge the inquest evidence!

And what happened to the period of reflection?

[David Orsam]

And there is also another problem, which you have not discussed. The Pall Mall Gazette wrote on the 10th November that the person who told the press about hearing Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" was "unable to say whether anyone else was with her at that time".

Why on earth is this a problem?

[David Orsam]

Another thing, David: I do not believe, like you do, in "the obvious".

Firstly, I didn't actually say that I believe in "the obvious", whatever that means. What I put forward were two obvious possibilities. They are either obvious possibilities or they are not. Clearly they are obvious possibilities which is why you don't like them.

Secondly, if you refuse to believe what is obvious then you are going to end up believing very strange things such as that the letter from GOGMAGOG was a letter from the murderer predicting the date of the next murder and identity of the victim. You are going to end up thinking that the killer of Kelly escaped by walking through the wall. You are going to end up thinking that the killer's name can be found in pawn tickets. You are going to end up thinking that the killer planted a story in the press about Kelly singing a song which she didn't sing. You are going to end up thinking that two commissioners of police, and other senior police officers, were involved in a conspiracy to protect the murderer. And you are probably going to end up identifying the wrong person as the killer.

Things that are not obvious are generally not obvious for a reason.

[Pierre]

Why on earth is this a problem?

Because when Cox heard Kelly sing the song "A Violet from Mother´s Grave" there was a man in the room with Kelly.

[David Orsam]

Because when Cox heard Kelly sing the song "A Violet from Mother´s Grave" there was a man in the room with Kelly.

Okay Pierre, you know what, I'm going to assume for the purpose of this discussion that what you say is absolutely true and I'm not going to ask you for evidence to support it.

But if there was man with Kelly in the room at the time she was singing, how would Cox (or anyone who heard her singing) have known that there was a man in the room?

And if someone heard her singing but didn't know there was a man in the room wouldn't they have said to the press that they were "unable to say whether anyone else was with her at that time"?

In which case, there's no problem here, right?

[Elamarna]

Pierre

Not gone away, but am in middle of moving and my mother has just gone into residential care, so not posting much at present. I am however keeping a watch on what is posted.

The only question i saw was about a play by Byron, published I believe in 1821, and from what i know, it is the biblical story of Cain and Abel.

What relevance does it have to the thread?

My dear friend, I am not sure what you are attempting to "fit" into your theory at this stage, however i have hardly stopped laughing.

Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

It seems most likely to me that Cox told McCarthy about hearing Mary singing, but not about having a man with her. So when McCarthy subsequently relayed her story to the press he was unable to say there was anyone with Mary.
Is that too obvious?

[Pierre]

Okay Pierre, you know what, I'm going to assume for the purpose of this discussion that what you say is absolutely true and I'm not going to ask you for evidence to support it.

But if there was man with Kelly in the room at the time she was singing, how would Cox (or anyone who heard her singing) have known that there was a man in the room?

And if someone heard her singing but didn't know there was a man in the room wouldn't they have said to the press that they were "unable to say whether anyone else was with her at that time"?

In which case, there's no problem here, right?

Early sources: There are no statements from "a woman" or from "a person" about any man being with Kelly at the time when Kelly was said to have been singing "Sweet Violets".

Late source: There are statements from Cox about a man being in the room with Kelly at the time when Kelly was said to have been singing and singing "A Violet from Mother´s Grave".

We can say "if" as many times as we like but it does not help. The sources do not answer questions starting with that word.

[John G]

It seems most likely to me that Cox told McCarthy about hearing Mary singing, but not about having a man with her. So when McCarthy subsequently relayed her story to the press he was unable to say there was anyone with Mary.
Is that too obvious?

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Pierre]

It seems most likely to me that Cox told McCarthy about hearing Mary singing, but not about having a man with her. So when McCarthy subsequently relayed her story to the press he was unable to say there was anyone with Mary.
Is that too obvious?

Things can seem likely and things can seem obvious but the past is gone and what we are making is history.

History is often made by the use of the likely and the obvious.

The past of serial killers is not often likely or obvious. If it was, we would not be here.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Steve,
Abel's wife in the play is called Zillah, the name in "Sweet Violets".

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,
Abel's wife in the play is called Zillah, the name in "Sweet Violets".

Thanks Joshua,

yet more clutching at literary strings to try and fashion some link.

it really is hilarious, something by the great Agatha would not be so complex, and this gets more like a story all the time.

Steve

[Pierre]

Pierre

Not gone away, but am in middle of moving and my mother has just gone into residential care, so not posting much at present. I am however keeping a watch on what is posted.

The only question i saw was about a play by Byron, published I believe in 1821, and from what i know, it is the biblical story of Cain and Abel.

What relevance does it have to the thread?

My dear friend, I am not sure what you are attempting to "fit" into your theory at this stage, however i have hardly stopped laughing.

Steve

Steve!!! Great!!!

Good to see you, indeed. I see you are busy so I will not take your time.

And of course you spotted the question and the history of Cain and Abel directly.

Well, lord Byron wrote his version about Cain and Abel. And it is interesting. If you read it when you have the time you will see why.

Steve - who, according to the Hebrews, was the first dead and at the same time the first murdered person in the world?

Take care now.

Best wishes, Pierre

[Elamarna]

Pierre


the Answer is clear.

your point is?

what does the first death and murder according to a religious text have to do with :
A) the thread, other than the point Joshua raised?
B) the case in General?

Steve