Surgical expertise, anatomical knowledge. So on and so forth..

[Bridewell]

Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
There are three details of significant importance, as highlited by Prosector (Surgeon), I summarize below:

1 - Where a section of colon was removed and the sigmoid flexure was invaginated into the rectum.

Our surgeon explained that this is precisely what surgeons & pathologists do when they have to remove the descending colon. Which is done to stop faeces from oozing back into the abdominal cavity.

2 - The careful removal of a kidney, located at the rear of the body and enveloped within a fatty membrane is something that comes with experience.

Removing the descending colon in order to access this organ is not the kind of procedure that comes to someone who has no medical training.

3 - In any normal procedure for accessing the abdominal cavity by using a midline incision the normal practice is to skirt the cut around the umbilicus (belly button) but to the right.

This is standard practice for a surgeon when he is expected to sew up the patient after the operation or autopsy. The umbilicus is too tough to sew up so it is avoided and always to the right.
This is what we see done by the killer.

Conclusion, whoever killed and mutilated those women was no stranger to the medical profession.

Fascinating stuff, Jon. Thank-you.

[Jeff Leahy]

Lawende & Co. walked down to Aldgate, yet they did not mention seeing Harvey walking up, neither did Harvey claim to see these three men in Duke Street.
Is this consistent with your argument that there was no-one in Duke Street?
Perhaps not, right?

Yeah...but a watchman did see a couple leave Aldgate station..((St Bapholomous (Sorry about dyslexic spelling)) And a man return from Mitre Street on his own did he not?

and of course the 'Prime suspect' worked in a Hospital in Poland according to Simms..?

So it all adds up

Yours Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Which suggests what, that the killer with Eddowes entered the square from either St James Passage or Mitre Street?
Is that a problem?



Lawende & Co. walked down to Aldgate, yet they did not mention seeing Harvey walking up, neither did Harvey claim to see these three men in Duke Street.
Is this consistent with your argument that there was no-one in Duke Street?
Perhaps not, right?

The 11 minute window you seek to prove sits nicely with your misguided belief that the killer had time to do all he is supposed to have done. Whereas with the times stated by the witnesses only opinion and the opinions of medical experts suggest that those times would not be sufficient.

May I suggest you revisit all the evidence relating to both sides of the arguments relating to the organ removal issue because I am sorry to keep telling you that the old accepted theory does not now stand up to close scrutiny.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

But the fact is that no one else was seen by Harvey en route to Church passage.

Which suggests what, that the killer with Eddowes entered the square from either St James Passage or Mitre Street?
Is that a problem?

Lawende and others saw no one else. No one else came forward. So your 11-15 mins has no foundation to it.

Lawende & Co. walked down to Aldgate, yet they did not mention seeing Harvey walking up, neither did Harvey claim to see these three men in Duke Street.
Is this consistent with your argument that there was no-one in Duke Street?
Perhaps not, right?

[Jeff Leahy]

If this were the case, we could exclude quite a few purported suspects, including many popularly favoured ones.

...

Not quite sure what is intended by this statement? Surely some medical knowledge can't be excluded from most of the leading suspects?

So it really doesn't assist that much...

On a slightly different note surely the differences in apparent skill between the Eddows and Chapman murders are best explained by the possible differences in light conditions?

Yours Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

There was only 2-3 minutes between Harvey arriving at the bottom end of Church passage (approx. 1:41-2), and Watkins entering the square from the other side (approx. 1:44).

So the chances are, the killer was not there between those times but had left at or prior to Harvey's appearance at the square.

As Lawende & Co. left the club at 1:33-4 (according to Levy), and Harvey arrived at the court about 1:41-2, the killer only had 9 minutes max, or 7 minutes min. to walk slowly down the passage with his victim and across the square (150ft?), and then murder, mutilate, and leave.

So 9 minutes total (including the walk from Duke St. to the far corner of the square) is not impossible, but if we dispense with the idea that Lawende saw Kate with the killer in Duke St., then there is no concern about time.

The killer had to enter the square after Watkins passed through on his previous circuit, which is about 1:30 +/-.
So the killer could have had 11-12 minutes max.

But the fact is that no one else was seen by Harvey en route to Church passage. Lawende and others saw no one else. No one else came forward. So your 11-15 mins has no foundation to it.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Qlder]

Surgical knowledge vs Surgical experience

Stepping aside from the interesting conversation about Mitre Square that has occupied recent posts on this thread, I would like to throw my tuppence in about the question of surgical skill and/or experience.

There is a divergence of opinion amongst modern students of these crimes as there was a divergence of opinion in the contemporary examiners about the perpetrator's capabilities. There appears to be evidence of "anatomical knowledge" in that the position and characteristics of various organs and structures are taken into account by the killer in his doings. Extending this idea, there is even the appearance of "surgical knowledge", i.e. not just where things are, but how to go about specific cutting tasks.

As Wickerman pointed out in post #7 (summarizing Prosector's suggestions):

There are three details of significant importance, as highlited by Prosector (Surgeon), I summarize below:
1 - Where a section of colon was removed and the sigmoid flexure was invaginated into the rectum.
Our surgeon explained that this is precisely what surgeons & pathologists do when they have to remove the descending colon. Which is done to stop faeces from oozing back into the abdominal cavity.
2 - The careful removal of a kidney, located at the rear of the body and enveloped within a fatty membrane is something that comes with experience.
Removing the descending colon in order to access this organ is not the kind of procedure that comes to someone who has no medical training.
3 - In any normal procedure for accessing the abdominal cavity by using a midline incision the normal practice is to skirt the cut around the umbilicus (belly button) but to the right.
This is standard practice for a surgeon when he is expected to sew up the patient after the operation or autopsy. The umbilicus is too tough to sew up so it is avoided and always to the right.
This is what we see done by the killer.
Conclusion, whoever killed and mutilated those women was no stranger to the medical profession.

Elmore 77 noted in comment #64:

Prosector's comments promote the idea that the killer had knowledge and skill,possibly acquired as a spectator, but the doctors at the time seem to say he has the knowledge but limited skill(or no skill).

So how do we square these ideas away? There seems to be evidence of knowledge (anatomical and surgical), but the "handiwork" seems lacking in the quality contemporary medical men expected to see if it were done by a well-practised surgeon. I think a well-practised mortuary staffer might also be expected to be better about it than was seen in these crimes.

To me, the most viable explication is that the perpetrator had either:
(i) witnessed dissections without himself assisting in the cutting, or
(ii) studied medical texts concerning anatomy and surgery.

If this were the case, we could exclude quite a few purported suspects, including many popularly favoured ones.

I note here that it is interesting that one suspect, who is often rejected in a rather summary fashion, is known to have studied medical books but was not himself ever a medical man nor even a medical student.

...

[Wickerman]

so even more time pressure for kidney and face

There was only 2-3 minutes between Harvey arriving at the bottom end of Church passage (approx. 1:41-2), and Watkins entering the square from the other side (approx. 1:44).

So the chances are, the killer was not there between those times but had left at or prior to Harvey's appearance at the square.

As Lawende & Co. left the club at 1:33-4 (according to Levy), and Harvey arrived at the court about 1:41-2, the killer only had 9 minutes max, or 7 minutes min. to walk slowly down the passage with his victim and across the square (150ft?), and then murder, mutilate, and leave.

So 9 minutes total (including the walk from Duke St. to the far corner of the square) is not impossible, but if we dispense with the idea that Lawende saw Kate with the killer in Duke St., then there is no concern about time.

The killer had to enter the square after Watkins passed through on his previous circuit, which is about 1:30 +/-.
So the killer could have had 11-12 minutes max.

[elmore 77]

so even more time pressure for kidney and face

[Wickerman]

According to Dr Phillips at the Chapman inquest, the killer was already going "flat out", he said:

"...that anatomical knowledge was only less displayed or indicated in consequence of haste. The person evidently was hindered from making a more complete dissection in consequence of the haste."

[elmore 77]

Thinking about this, is it not possible that the "single cut" option was chosen at Mitre Square precisely because the killer felt pressed for time?

i agree with this.He knew he had to get the kidney out and mutilate her face,so he had to go flat out,he couldn't reference the previous 'jobs' for a timescale

[Sam Flynn]

Alternately, the fact he took the time to mark up the face has been interpreted as indicating he was not so pressed for time.

True, Jon, but as far as I see it, the slashes inflicted on Eddowes' face (including lopping off nose and earlobe) could easily have been accomplished within 10-20 seconds.

[Wickerman]

Thinking about this, is it not possible that the "single cut" option was chosen at Mitre Square precisely because the killer felt pressed for time?

Alternately, the fact he took the time to mark up the face has been interpreted as indicating he was not so pressed for time.

Who knows...

[Sam Flynn]

Hmmm...

Paradoxically, the way in which Eddowes' abdomen was opened - a [single?] cut down the midline from breastbone to navel, then jagging right toward the pelvis - seems to have been far neater...

Thinking about this, is it not possible that the "single cut" option was chosen at Mitre Square precisely because the killer felt pressed for time?

[c.d.]

"Simply accomplishing the tasks isn't the only barometer here Hunter, we have evidence in the case of Annie Chapman that not only was the organ skillfully excised and complete, but everything that was done to the abdomen was to facilitate that action. If you think the mutilations could be done that swiftly, then I suppose you have an alternate theory about why Liz Stride wasn't mutilated....the estimate of her cut time was 12:46-12:56, and Diemshitz said he arrived at 1, so why is Liz untouched after a single cut? Seems like the window you suggest was available."

Hello Michael,

Simply having a window of opportunity is not enough if something spooked her killer. Always keep in mind that getting caught meant getting hanged. Stride was not the only woman in Whitechapel.

c.d.