Surgical expertise, anatomical knowledge. So on and so forth..

[Joshua Rogan]

St. Botolphs down on Aldgate was like Hooker Central. I believe that locally it was known as the prostitutes church. Men and unfortunates coming and going, rain or shine is a real possibility.
The want of food and drink does not dissipate because it is raining.

St Botolph's was often referred to as the "Church of Prostitutes" in the late Victorian period. The church is sited on an island surrounded by roadways and it was usual in these times to be suspicious of women standing on street corners. They were easy targets for the police, and to escape arrest the prostitutes would parade around the island,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Botolph's_Aldgate

It was also surrounded by public houses, which can't have harmed trade

[Wickerman]

Not inconceivable either Gareth that the killer was in the square killing and already cutting when Lawende saw someone outside the square. I dont believe in simply assuming mad dashes or wild slashes to account for a time that is established by a witness that 2 weeks after the event "could not recognize her again". Lawendes sighting isnt a rock solid foundation in time.

If Lawende didnt see Kate, then the square is available from Watkins last pass through before the discovery and Harveys glance into the square.

Cheers Sam.

Yes Michael, in this we are in agreement.

[Wickerman]

St. Botolphs down on Aldgate was like Hooker Central. I believe that locally it was known as the prostitutes church. Men and unfortunates coming and going, rain or shine is a real possibility.
The want of food and drink does not dissipate because it is raining.

St Botolph's was often referred to as the "Church of Prostitutes" in the late Victorian period. The church is sited on an island surrounded by roadways and it was usual in these times to be suspicious of women standing on street corners. They were easy targets for the police, and to escape arrest the prostitutes would parade around the island,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Botolph's_Aldgate

[Jeff Leahy]

If Lawende didnt see Kate, then the square is available from Watkins last pass through before the discovery and Harveys glance into the square.

Cheers Sam.

It was 1.35 am in the morning the streets were hardly packed with hundreds of people...Lawende had been waiting because of the rain when he left the cub.... The chances of him seeing another couple one of whom looks like Eddows, is surely at best slim?

Surely simply going with the most obvious solution...that Lawende saw Kate is not only the most logical explanation but, as I observed to Trevor, the conclusion investigating officers came to at the time?

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

If the killer didn't take it from the crime scene it had to get there by another means did it not ?

It just astounds me how many ripperologists are willing to jump through the most improbable 'holes' to join pieces of a theory...

Surely the very simple and most logical explanation that the killer simply cut the apron to wipe his hands or rap the missing kidney.....then paused in the doorway to wipe his hands of any blood or feces, is the most logical explanation?

This is after all the conclusion most of the investigating officers came too at the time?

Yours Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Ah! Just to be clear, my 5 minutes only refers to the period of murder and mutilation.
The "getting-there" time is tricky to gauge. At a leisurely pace, I suppose it could have taken two or three minutes to get from Church Passage to the other end of the Square; however, it's not inconceivable that, eager to get things done (whatever "things" were), they got there quicker.

Not inconceivable either Gareth that the killer was in the square killing and already cutting when Lawende saw someone outside the square. I dont believe in simply assuming mad dashes or wild slashes to account for a time that is established by a witness that 2 weeks after the event "could not recognize her again". Lawendes sighting isnt a rock solid foundation in time.

If Lawende didnt see Kate, then the square is available from Watkins last pass through before the discovery and Harveys glance into the square.

Cheers Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

But Gareth, that 5 minutes includes the 150ft walk down Church Passage and across the square

Ah! Just to be clear, my 5 minutes only refers to the period of murder and mutilation.

I'm assuming he wouldn't drag her there like they were running for a bus.

The "getting-there" time is tricky to gauge. At a leisurely pace, I suppose it could have taken two or three minutes to get from Church Passage to the other end of the Square; however, it's not inconceivable that, eager to get things done (whatever "things" were), they got there quicker.

[Trevor Marriott]

OK you lost me there a little

Your suggesting that the body was slashed by an amateur at the scene
YES

i.e. someone like Feigenbaum who was a sailor who later became a gardener..
YES

And the organs were removed professionally at the mortuary by someone like Mann... ?
Not someone like Mann but someone with anatomical knowledge !

or are you suggesting the organs were removed else where and the body dumped in Mitre Square?
NO

Was this before or after eddows dropped the apron/tampax in the Goulston Street doorway?

If the killer didn't take it from the crime scene it had to get there by another means did it not ?

Yours Jeff

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff
Feigenbaum and any other suspect fits well if the organs were not removed at the crime scenes.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

OK you lost me there a little

Your suggesting that the body was slashed by an amateur at the scene

i.e. someone like Feigenbaum who was a sailor who later became a gardener..

And the organs were removed professionally at the mortuary by someone like Mann... ?

or are you suggesting the organs were removed else where and the body dumped in Mitre Square?

Was this before or after eddows dropped the apron/tampax in the Goulston Street doorway?

Yours Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

As has been said here already, victims that were slashed and sliced somewhat indiscriminately and without an apparent subsequent objective....like the way Annie was opened, where all actions were geared towards a clean extraction of the uterus....( ie...Kates face and colon, Marys face and organs.... excised even though they were not required to be so to access the heart, which was the only organ taken), did not require much or any formal education or practice.

The way that Annie was mutilated convinced the police and the medical experts that her killer had some of both skill sets.

Cheers

[elmore 77]

Wasn't the disembowellment done to access the missing bits?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor

I don't know if i'm missing something here but isn't the only suspect without any suggested medical knowledge Carl Feigenbaum a merchant seaman?

I'm not certain how this fits your current position?

Yours Jeff

Jeff
Feigenbaum and any other suspect fits well if the organs were not removed at the crime scenes.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jeff Leahy]

The 5 mins is based on witness testimony.

What do you do ignore that because it doesn't fit someone's theory and then throw in another time frame which loosely fits ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor

I don't know if i'm missing something here but isn't the only suspect without any suggested medical knowledge Carl Feigenbaum a merchant seaman?

I'm not certain how this fits your current position?

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Eddowes left Bishopsgate PS at 1am. Arrived in Mitre Square around 1.10am.

Just a thought but why?

Isn't it more probable that Cathrine Endows was broke and headed back to her spot to solicit? That would take her back to where she had been arrested in Aldgate High Street...approx 20 minute walk from Bishopgate police station...

Then we have the trajectory of Jack.... If he kills Stide at 12.50 and is seen in Whitechurch lane at 1.20 am.... Its more probable he meets Eddows at St Botolph's around 1.25-30 am taking the short walk to church passage 1.35am

Just a timing thought

Yours Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, the 5 minute timing is your claim, not Jon's.

The 5 mins is based on witness testimony.

What do you do ignore that because it doesn't fit someone's theory and then throw in another time frame which loosely fits ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk