Surgical expertise, anatomical knowledge. So on and so forth..

[Wickerman]

If the attack on Kate began shortly after Watkins made his pass at around 12:30 then we have 14 minutes for all the damage to be done...not something like 5-7 minutes based on Lawende's sighting time and Watkins discovery time.

I agree with your thinking on this...Lawende didn't see Kate at all.

Thankyou Michael, yes.
However, it is also possible that the killer was crouched over the body when Harvey approached the foot of Church Passage.
It was the darkest corner, and to flee means he would be running towards the better lighted portion of the square.

When a person (Harvey?) stands directly under a lamp at night their long distance vision into darkness is impaired by the glow of the lamp.
Would the killer understand this, and if so, did he hesitate to run?
Once he runs, he will be both heard and seen for sure.

That said, Harvey's time for being at the foot of Church Passage is only an estimate.

[RockySullivan]

I don't know why you are arguing with me Trevor, my post suggested the killer had more time than the traditionally assumed 9 minutes (not 5 as you implied).
My view is the killer was already engaged in the mutilations in the square when Lawende came out of the club.

Do you think the three men saw the ripper at work and decided to make haste and not get involved? I've often wondered (as i think pink moon frequently suggested) how many witnesses heard/saw something and yet decided to remain quiet

[Michael W Richards]

I don't know why you are arguing with me Trevor, my post suggested the killer had more time than the traditionally assumed 9 minutes (not 5 as you implied).
My view is the killer was already engaged in the mutilations in the square when Lawende came out of the club.

If the attack on Kate began shortly after Watkins made his pass at around 12:30 then we have 14 minutes for all the damage to be done...not something like 5-7 minutes based on Lawende's sighting time and Watkins discovery time.

I agree with your thinking on this...Lawende didn't see Kate at all.

[Wickerman]

5 or 9 minutes is still not enough time for the killer to do all that he is supposed to have done, having regards for the issues previously mentioned coupled with medical experts corroborating this. You don't seem to reālise that to locate and take hold of a kidney is a difficult task at the best of times because of where it sits at the back of the abdominal cavity and it sits in renal fact making it almost impossible to feel without ample lighting to see.it is also difficult to take hold of.
So put all these factors together points to the killer not being responsible for the removal of the organs from Eddowes

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I don't know why you are arguing with me Trevor, my post suggested the killer had more time than the traditionally assumed 9 minutes (not 5 as you implied).
My view is the killer was already engaged in the mutilations in the square when Lawende came out of the club.

[Trevor Marriott]

The only reason for this 5 minutes is Lawende's testimony, if he didn't see Kate, as I believe, then we are not limited to the 5 minutes (about 9 actually - from 1:35 to 1:44).
Lawende's suspect wasn't 'Jack' and the woman was not Kate - in my view. There's no need to make this crime more mysterious than it already is.

5 or 9 minutes is still not enough time for the killer to do all that he is supposed to have done, having regards for the issues previously mentioned coupled with medical experts corroborating this. You don't seem to reālise that to locate and take hold of a kidney is a difficult task at the best of times because of where it sits at the back of the abdominal cavity and it sits in renal fact making it almost impossible to feel without ample lighting to see.it is also difficult to take hold of.
So put all these factors together points to the killer not being responsible for the removal of the organs from Eddowes

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Observer]

So the fact that in September the police were actively seeking out medical practitioners, medical students and surgically trained practitioners means little to you then?

It meant little to the police either after they'd exhausted that avenue of inquiry, and moved on realising that

"medical students and surgically trained practitioners"

had nothing to do with the crimes.

Its humorous how often people here offer opinions that fly in the face of the accepted evidence.

I'ts humerous the way in which you interpret the evidence relating to this case. More of that in a while.

I'm in good company regarding the medical evidence if not with fantasists, who post here on this forum, then certainly with Doctor Bond who rightly declared that the killer did not display any surgical skills.

The facts are that Annie Chapmans murder was committed by someone with both skill sets, knowledge and knife skills. that was the opinion of the medical examiner, and the police, But...of course, your hunch is worth much more than any actual evidence.

The opinion of the police? What input regarding surgical skills would any of the police officers involved in the case be able to contribute? And as I said it 's not just my ("hunch"?) but the opinion of Doctor Bond as well.

[Michael W Richards]

Spot on Elmore. Anyone who believes there was any skilled involved during the butchering of those poor women is beyongd me.

So the fact that in September the police were actively seeking out medical practitioners, medical students and surgically trained practitioners means little to you then?

Its humorous how often people here offer opinions that fly in the face of the accepted evidence.

The facts are that Annie Chapmans murder was committed by someone with both skill sets, knowledge and knife skills. that was the opinion of the medical examiner, and the police, But...of course, your hunch is worth much more than any actual evidence.

[Wickerman]

And you and all the others really believe that killer did all of this in 5 mins un-aided in total darkness in a blood filled abdomen.

You really do need reality checks !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The only reason for this 5 minutes is Lawende's testimony, if he didn't see Kate, as I believe, then we are not limited to the 5 minutes (about 9 actually - from 1:35 to 1:44).
Lawende's suspect wasn't 'Jack' and the woman was not Kate - in my view. There's no need to make this crime more mysterious than it already is.

[Observer]

I think it's fair to say he had a very sharp knife and he wasn't very nice(hope that narrows it down)

Spot on Elmore. Anyone who believes there was any skilled involved during the butchering of those poor women is beyongd me.

[DJA]

Quite funny

Ironically, you are not that far from the truth.

[elmore 77]

You have absolutely no idea what you are on about!

You noticed!
I read it once and as I remember it,it was just about pulling it out under the rib cage,but my point was more about him suggesting surgical skill not about me knowing what it was

[elmore 77]

Sam, That could work,it might account for the cries of 'oh murder' as he threw her around the room
Enjoyed your Eddowes dissertation btw

[DJA]

Richard Patterson says the removal of the heart was done using the Virchow method but I can't imagine any other way of getting it out.I think it's fair to say he had a very sharp knife and he wasn't very nice(hope that narrows it down)

You have absolutely no idea what you are on about!

[Sam Flynn]

Richard Patterson says the removal of the heart was done using the Virchow method but I can't imagine any other way of getting it out.

... the Heimlich manœuvre?

Only kidding

[elmore 77]

Hi all,
Prosector's comments promote the idea that the killer had knowledge and skill,possibly acquired as a spectator, but the doctors at the time seem to say he has the knowledge but limited skill(or no skill).Richard Patterson says the removal of the heart was done using the Virchow method but I can't imagine any other way of getting it out.I think it's fair to say he had a very sharp knife and he wasn't very nice(hope that narrows it down)