Surgical expertise, anatomical knowledge. So on and so forth..

[c.d.]

"I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual."

Notice the word "nearly" in Fanny Mortimer's statement.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

The problem is that if there was in fact an interruption we don't know when it occurred. I see your point that there is no evidence of preparation for mutilation but what if the interruption (or simply paranoia on his part) took place right after he had cut her? In other words, what if the process of mutilation never began at all?

As for her body position, doesn't it seem strange that PC Lamb stated that she looked as though she had been gently laid down? Doesn't that seem inconsistent with an angry killer like a domestic? Why not simply let the body fall and get out of there as quickly as possible? It seems more in line with someone who was cognizant of the people inside the club, someone who had experience in killing and who had thought this through.

You still sight Fanny Mortimer as the word of God. If she didn't see anything take place including the arrival of Diemschutz, I have to question her times. I don't think they were as accurate as you seem to believe.

c.d.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

But surely thats a catch twenty two... She wasn't on her back because the attacker didn't have time or didn't feel comfortable proceeding...

Perhaps it was to close to home?

Perhaps Stride regained consciousness and drew into a featus position?

That could explain the bloody right hand.

[Michael W Richards]

If Stride's killer was Jack and something did in fact spook him so that he fled before mutilating her body, it needn't be Diemschutz's arrival on the scene. It must have occurred to him that killing her so close to the club where there were a number of people was risky. The desire for another victim could have overridden that fear. If something spooked him (and it could have been anything) he might have simply ducked back into the yard and waited. Hearing Diemschutz approach he might have decided that this was a bad business and fled.

Assuming for the sake of argument that this scenario is correct, if whatever spooked him occurred right at the time he was in the act of killing Stride and that is the time he ducked into the yard, then we have a possible explanation why no mutilation occurred even though it would seem that he had the requisite amount of time. Also, if what spooked him was the sound of a door opening or a change in the volume of the singing or hearing voices there would be no evidence for that. The same holds true if his paranoia simply got the better of him for no particular reason. There would be no evidence that that is what took place.

Stride was not the only woman in Whitechapel. If he were to be caught he would be hanged. Important things to keep in mind.

We can't conclude with absolute certainty that no mutilation means her killer was not Jack. An interruption is a reasonable explanation that doesn't require the presence of aliens, supernatural forces or a violation of the laws of physics. It happens all the time.

c.d.

You seem to believe that an interruption could not be detected if it existed, and that's patently incorrect. An interruption at the very second he was preparing to move to his next activity would still be visible in some form...manipulation of the clothing, change of body position after that single cut, which is critical here...she wasn't moved a hair...evidence of a hasty departure in the form of witness accounts, (Fanny Mortimer was at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1am and she saw no-one, including Louis's arrival supposedly at 1am)....etc.

Again, for the umpteenth time, there is as much evidence that Liz Stride was killed by Bigfoot as there is for an interruption.

An example of logical supposition would be that Mary Kelly was killed by someone she knew, based on the location, the dress of the victim, and the fact that we know she was seeing more than just Joe Barnett.

[Michael W Richards]

But surely thats a catch twenty two... She wasn't on her back because the attacker didn't have time or didn't feel comfortable proceeding...

Perhaps it was to close to home?

Perhaps Stride regained consciousness and drew into a featus position?

What you can't deny is that whoever killed Stride could easily have made Whitechurch lane around 1.25 am. Crossed Whitechapel Road and headed towards Aldgate station... Met Eddows and be standing talking to her in Church Passage at 1.35 am.

What are the odds of two murders so close together and the time frame allowing for one to the other?

Pretty small i would suggest

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I suppose one could imagine a thousand reasons why Liz Stride wasn't mutilated, but I submit that there are none worth any salt unless there is some physical evidence to warrant such speculation.

Liz was cut once then left alone on her side..thats all we have, and that seems to suggest that what happened to Liz was all that was intended.

Cheers

[Sam Flynn]

Yeah but undiscovered murders in London were rare...

They don't have to be undiscovered, Jeff, or even murders. Attempted murders, manslaughter and non-fatal assaults need to be considered, too. What happened to Liz needn't have been a premeditated murder, but a mugging gone horribly wrong.

[Joshua Rogan]

If something spooked him (and it could have been anything) he might have simply ducked back into the yard and waited.

I don't have a problem with the killer getting spooked and running, but I'm not sure ducking further into the yard would have been his best bet.

This is what the Daily Telegraph 2nd Oct reports Louis as saying;

"When you entered the yard, if any person had run out you would have seen them in the dark? - Oh, yes, it was light enough for that. It was dark in the gateway, but not so dark further in the yard."

[Jeff Leahy]

The present day is not like the overcrowded, crime-ridden slums of the 1880s, and thankfully hasn't been for the best part of a century. That's partly down to the social improvements brought about in response to Jack the Ripper and his fellow knife-wielding miscreants, all of whom were more prevalent in the Late Victorian East End.It may seem more probable, but it's nowhere near as "more probable" as we might think.

Yeah but undiscovered murders in London were rare... and according to Anderson the Jack the Ripper crimes were NOT within that category?

Yours Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Hi Sam.
Probably not. However, I never even considered before that the ripper didn't have some kind of medical experience. But because of arguments by posters like you Hunter and others I realize it is a possibility now

Hi Sam
The discussion on the Pranzini thread has nudged me closer to the possibility that the ripper had no official medical training.

[Abby Normal]

If Stride's killer was Jack and something did in fact spook him so that he fled before mutilating her body, it needn't be Diemschutz's arrival on the scene. It must have occurred to him that killing her so close to the club where there were a number of people was risky. The desire for another victim could have overridden that fear. If something spooked him (and it could have been anything) he might have simply ducked back into the yard and waited. Hearing Diemschutz approach he might have decided that this was a bad business and fled.

Assuming for the sake of argument that this scenario is correct, if whatever spooked him occurred right at the time he was in the act of killing Stride and that is the time he ducked into the yard, then we have a possible explanation why no mutilation occurred even though it would seem that he had the requisite amount of time. Also, if what spooked him was the sound of a door opening or a change in the volume of the singing or hearing voices there would be no evidence for that. The same holds true if his paranoia simply got the better of him for no particular reason. There would be no evidence that that is what took place.

Stride was not the only woman in Whitechapel. If he were to be caught he would be hanged. Important things to keep in mind.

We can't conclude with absolute certainty that no mutilation means her killer was not Jack. An interruption is a reasonable explanation that doesn't require the presence of aliens, supernatural forces or a violation of the laws of physics. It happens all the time.

c.d.

Bingo. Add in the probable Schwartz interruption and there is any number of reasons the ripper may have spooked before he mutilated stride.

[c.d.]

If Stride's killer was Jack and something did in fact spook him so that he fled before mutilating her body, it needn't be Diemschutz's arrival on the scene. It must have occurred to him that killing her so close to the club where there were a number of people was risky. The desire for another victim could have overridden that fear. If something spooked him (and it could have been anything) he might have simply ducked back into the yard and waited. Hearing Diemschutz approach he might have decided that this was a bad business and fled.

Assuming for the sake of argument that this scenario is correct, if whatever spooked him occurred right at the time he was in the act of killing Stride and that is the time he ducked into the yard, then we have a possible explanation why no mutilation occurred even though it would seem that he had the requisite amount of time. Also, if what spooked him was the sound of a door opening or a change in the volume of the singing or hearing voices there would be no evidence for that. The same holds true if his paranoia simply got the better of him for no particular reason. There would be no evidence that that is what took place.

Stride was not the only woman in Whitechapel. If he were to be caught he would be hanged. Important things to keep in mind.

We can't conclude with absolute certainty that no mutilation means her killer was not Jack. An interruption is a reasonable explanation that doesn't require the presence of aliens, supernatural forces or a violation of the laws of physics. It happens all the time.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Yeah but then how many times has such an event happened to the present day

The present day is not like the overcrowded, crime-ridden slums of the 1880s, and thankfully hasn't been for the best part of a century. That's partly down to the social improvements brought about in response to Jack the Ripper and his fellow knife-wielding miscreants, all of whom were more prevalent in the Late Victorian East End.

So it simply seems more probable that the same person killed both women.

It may seem more probable, but it's nowhere near as "more probable" as we might think.

[Jeff Leahy]

I worked it out a while back, Jeff. It's of the order of tens of thousands to one, given the climate/culture of the rough East End and its population density at the time. Probabilities of 10,000s to 1 sound like long odds, but they're not really. It's of the same order as getting 5 numbers plus the Bonus Ball in the National Lottery (before they added the extra numbers!), and people used to win that regularly - indeed, having more than one winner in the same draw was not uncommon.

Yeah but then how many times has such an event happened to the present day, apart from the Sally Anne Bowman murder (And that was the same guy) Woman with their throats cut are few and far between, as were such murders at the time.

So it simply seems more probable that the same person killed both women.

Not to say impossible that they were by different people just improbable

Yours Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

And what is the probability of two murders that easily allow for that to happen?

I worked it out a while back, Jeff. It's of the order of tens of thousands to one, given the climate/culture of the rough East End and its population density at the time. Probabilities of 10,000s to 1 sound like long odds, but they're not really. It's of the same order as getting 5 numbers plus the Bonus Ball in the National Lottery (before they added the extra numbers!), and people used to win that regularly - indeed, having more than one winner in the same draw was not uncommon.

[Jeff Leahy]

So, now we have Dymshitz's arrival not only compromising the throat-cut, but also spooking the Ripper so much that he'd only managed to turn his victim 90º before he chickened out completely

Hi Sam

But that would assume that Diemscutz disturbed the killer, which seems most unlikely for a number of reasons... Where as Schwartz disturbing the killer matches Blackwell's estamate of time of death...while allowing plenty of time for the killer to also meet Eddows.

And what is the probability of two murders that easily allow for that to happen?

Yours Jeff