JtR FINAL Victim Body to be exhumed

[GUT]

Hi Gut,
I take it to relate to the influx of Irish into London,so lots of Irish prostitutes

Btw welcome to Casebook.

What I was wondering is do you know any authority to support the claim that Kelly was term for prostitute.

[DJA]

I think Prosector put the idea forward in the press.

First I'd heard of it.

No reason to doubt it.

[GUT]

I think Prosector put the idea forward in the press.

First I'd heard of it.

No reason to doubt it.

I'd heard the claim before then, but no one can give me any authority for it.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
It is my belief that the name Kelly arose from Barnett, according to McCarthy , ''She came to live with a man named Kelly, and posed as his wife, becoming known therefore as ''Mary Jane[ as the residents knew her] Kelly.
Very simple..Kelly was Barnetts alias...I have often wondered when he used his real name whilst in the court, maybe only after the murder, and coming forward to the police?
Regards Richard.

[GUT]

Hi.
It is my belief that the name Kelly arose from Barnett, according to McCarthy , ''She came to live with a man named Kelly, and posed as his wife, becoming known therefore as ''Mary Jane[ as the residents knew her] Kelly.
Very simple..Kelly was Barnetts alias...I have often wondered when he used his real name whilst in the court, maybe only after the murder, and coming forward to the police?
Regards Richard.

Certainly seems that way to me.

Or was one of the other Joe s a Kelly, I can't make it fit, but find it a little puzzling that McCarthy never said "But he told me his name was Kelly".

[Rosella]

Perhaps McCarthy was used to people around using aliases for various reasons so didn't comment on it.

I've never heard of Kelly being a generic name for a prostitute at that time either, and I'd love to know the source

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
I have read also that McCarthy is quoted to have said , Kelly a coal porter?..surely the landlord would have noticed a Coalman's appearance and one would think the wash sink in the court would have been used frequently.
Was that a press error?
Alias's were being used all the time..nothing new on that, but it would suggest that the female in room 13, was not a Kelly, and most likely a Davis/Davies,
The whole episode in her life is utterly confusing..
Regards Richard.

[packers stem]

I'm pretty sure we'd have spotted something by now if there were documentary evidence suggesting that 'mary kelly' was a blanket term for prostitutes
I've never seen anything to suggest this and think it could be a mix up with the male prostitutes in then Cleveland Street scandal being known as Mary Annes??
Surely Mary Kelly would not have used the name if this were the case,Barnett may not have been too chuffed either and i suspect Catherine Eddowes may have chosen not to use her boyfriends name...
DJA you have no reason to doubt it..why? are you saying there are known press reports at the time saying as such? obviously prior not post murders as post murders it could have been a term influenced by the murders..

[elmore 77]

Were they known as kellies in Ireland?I took it that the most commonly used alias at the time was Kelly due to Irish influence.Also I don't see Barnett being too bothered as he was probably poncing off her.

[GUT]

Hi.
I have read also that McCarthy is quoted to have said , Kelly a coal porter?..surely the landlord would have noticed a Coalman's appearance and one would think the wash sink in the court would have been used frequently.
Was that a press error?
Alias's were being used all the time..nothing new on that, but it would suggest that the female in room 13, was not a Kelly, and most likely a Davis/Davies,
The whole episode in her life is utterly confusing..
Regards Richard.

Richard

I don't recall seeing the porter quote.

But if so I can imagine a pressman being told Joe was a porter and writing coal porter ray than market porter.

[packers stem]

Hi Elmore 77
Never seen evidence of it.Kelly was the second most common surname in Ireland in the 19th century,can't see why the surname would have been synonymous with prostitution in Ireland unless someone has evidence to the contrary.
Not convinced about Barnett poncing off her either.Most of what we know suggests her lifestyle caused his leaving.Anything else is supposition or theory from authors.

[Sally]

Unfortunate Kellys?

As an experiment, I conducted a press trawl for Kellys described either as prostitutes or unfortunates in the latter half of the 19th century, using the BL digitised newspaper collection.

Having gone through the hits and excluded press reports not referring to prostitutes using the name Kelly, I found a total of 35; of which 14 were called Mary or variants [I included Mary Ann, Mary Jane and Maria]

I came across one instance of the name Kelly being used as an alias, which was that of a prostitute in Dundee whose true name was rumoured to be Rose Ann Armour. This lady commonly used the alias Rose Ann Kelly, but also from time to time used the aliases King and Queen

Rose Ann Kelly was briefly thought to have been murdered Rose Ann Kelly was briefly considered to have been murdered in 1877 when the body of an unfortunate, thought to have been suffocated, was found on Stobcross Dock. The victim seems not to have been Rose Ann Kelly, however, as she subsequently went on to commit further petty crimes in Dundee.

One case which is interesting considering the divorce proceedings of Francis Craig is that of an unfortunate called Mary Kelly living on Drummond Street, who was subjected to assault and theft of her umbrella in 1890 by Sarah Evans. [Reynolds Newspaper 27th July 1890] The address on Drummond Street isn't given, but the report does demonstrate that there was prostitution on Drummond Street at the time and of the sort that provided for relative luxuries such as an umbrella.

[packers stem]

Thanks Sally
So a relatively insignificant number then across the UK as a whole across half a century

[Sally]

Hi Packers Stem,

Yes, quite small - the higher proportion of Kellys called Mary or variants could simply be consequent of the popularity of the name; a preponderance of Catholics, if e.g. the majority were found to be of Irish descent, etc.

Whilst not terribly scientific, the exercise doesn't immediately seem to support the premise that Kelly was a byword for prostitute in this period.

Incidentally, I ran the same search for Davies out of curiousity and although I didn't go through the hits in the same detail, it was obvious that the numbers were considerably higher. I'm not sure that Kelly was actually all that common a name, comparatively.

It does make you wonder about the coincidence of Mary Kelly's in the Ripper case, all other things being equal.

[Bridewell]

Wasn't Mary Ann Kelly the name of John Kelly's wife? If so, the choice of name might just be mischief on the part of Eddowes.

Alternatively, if she was known to the Metropolitan, but not to the City Police, perhaps she gave the name of another prostitute in the hope of passing herself off as someone else.