The Whitehall Mystery

[RockySullivan]

Thanks Rocky.
I wonder what the working relationship was between the Whitechapel Board of Works and the Metropolitan Board of works? The Pinchin st arch belonged to one and the Whitehall builders (or architects?) were paying ground rent to the other.

Do you think both boards might employ the same workers (possibly sewer hands) through a contract? Like one company had the contract for all board of works?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Rocky, I find it interesting that a member of the Board of Works (or Guardians?) is the one who ordered the washing of Annie Chapman's body. I started a thread a couple years ago on it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Rocky,

Here's the thread I started. Turns out it was at the forums. http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18621

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[jerryd]

Which Fairclough, Rocky?

I believe his name was Maurice Fairclough, Debs.

[jerryd]

Do you think both boards might employ the same workers (possibly sewer hands) through a contract? Like one company had the contract for all board of works?

Hi Rocky,

I recently found reference to a School for Scavengers that was owned by the Board of Works. The Board owned 5 blocks of land around the Gravel Lane and Harrow Alley area. When I get home I will find and post the reference.

[jerryd]

Also, here is some info I researched on the Board of Works at the forums. About pages 4 or 5 have info on the Irongate sewer etc. than ran through Whitechapel. I now doubt Kelly's house had a big enough pipe into the house. But, outhouses and manholes were available close to her residence in the streets.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=23658&highlight=stinky+jack

[RockySullivan]

Rocky,

Here's the thread I started. Turns out it was at the forums. http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18621

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I found it through google and just read through the thread it's very interesting indeed. What is the board of guardians do you know?

Here's another thread of interest: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...Board+of+works

[RockySullivan]

Here's the info on patrick mulshaw:

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/pmulshaw.html

Patrick Mulshaw [a.k.a. Alfred Mulshaw, Malshaw]
Patrick Mulshaw, a night porter in the employ of the Whitechapel District Board of Works, living at 3, Rupert-street, Whitechapel, said on the night of this occurrence he was at the back of the Working Lads' Institute in Winthorpe-street [Winthrop-street]. He went on duty about a quarter to 5 in the afternoon, and remained until about five minutes to 6 the next morning, when he was relieved. He was watching some sewage works. He dozed at times during the night, but was not asleep between 3 and 4 o'clock. He did not see any one about during that period, and did not hear any cries for assistance, or any other noise. The slaughterhouse was about 70 yards away from where he was. Another man then passed by, and said, "Watchman, old man, I believe somebody is murdered down the street." Witness then went to Buck's-row, and saw the body of deceased lying on the ground. Three or four policemen and five or six working men were there.
By the CORONER. - If any one had called out for assistance from the spot where the body was he might have heard it. Nothing suspicious occurred during the time he was watching, and he saw no person running away. There was no one about after 11 and 12 o'clock, and the inhabitants of the street appeared to be very orderly persons. He did not often see the police there. During the night he saw two constables, including Constable Neil. He was unable to say what time he saw that officer.

-- Times [London] - 18 September 1888
Alfred Mulshaw, night watchman for the Board of Works, Whitechapel district, said that he was on duty in Winthorpe-street [sic], Buck’s-row, all the night of the murder. He was watching the sewage works. Between three and four o’clock on the morning of the murder he was awake, but did not see anyone about at that time, nor did he hear any cries for assistance, or any other noise. He was stationed not very far from the place where the murdered woman was found. About twenty minutes to five o’clock a man came and said, “Old man, I think a woman has been murdered,” and he immediately went round to Buck’s-row, where he saw the deceased lying on the ground.

-- Illustrated Police News - 22 September 1888
Alfred Malshaw [Mulshaw], a night watchman in Winthorpe-street, had also heard no cries or noise. He admitted that he sometimes dozed.
The Coroner: I suppose your watching is not up to much?
The Witness: I don't know. It is thirteen long hours for 3s and find your own coke. (Laughter.)
By the Jury: In a straight line I was about thirty yards from the spot where the deceased was found.

-- The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, September 18, 1888
Related pages:
Patrick Mulshaw
Message Boards: Patrick Mulshaw
Press Reports: Times [London] - 18 September 1888

And here's from then mitre square murder:
Only Twenty Yards Away.

In connection with the Mitre-square murder, the foreman of the sewer hands who are engaged at Aldgate in sweeping the streets in the early hours of the morning has stated most positively that at the time when the murder is supposed to have been perpetrated he was standing not more than 20 yards away from the spot where the body was found. He never heard any woman's cries for help, nor any sounds of a struggle.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=345069#post345069

Similar stories eh?

[jerryd]

Hi Rocky.

FYI- Patrick Mulshaw was living at 3, Rupert Street which was a few streets west of Backchurch Lane. He also lived on Goulston Street.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi John
Maybe I'm being totally off the wall here but I'm guessing a woman would need to be pregnant before she contemplated seeking out a back street abortionist? The uterus in both the Rainham and Pinchin case was the size and shape of women who hadn't had children. At the very least the uterus was not gravid, nor had it been in the last few weeks of life.

Hi Debs
Many post back on this thread we were discussing the use of poisons and other noxious substances of pregnant women to either procure an abortion or some other illegal operation in relation to a pregnancy. In may of the case the doctors rules this out, despite not conducting any tests on the remains of the bodies.

You will recall that I questioned those conclusions by those doctors and had ever right to do so having regard to what we now know was at times nothing more than guesswork by Victorian doctors.

I did say that I would ask Dr Biggs to comment on this and I put to him a number of connected questions relative to this issue

The questions are set out below and following on is his collective answers

Questions have been raised surrounding deaths as a result of some of them being administered poisons or some other noxious substance to procure an abortion, which we know was quiet common back then via back street abortionists.

It appears that in most case the doctors were able to rule out either of these as a causes of death. So that begs the questions

How would they be able to rule that out at the post mortem stage?

If they had been poisoned what effect would it have on the body if the body had been in the river for some time, or had started to decompose having been hidden on land, would something be visible to the doctors which would conform poisons?

Can a case of poisoning in this way be detected by sight only? I know nowadays sample are sent for toxicology tests but way back then they didn't have that luxury.

Could it have been detected by them in 1888 or was it guesswork again?

Reply

"I think this is fairly quick to answer, although perhaps not satisfactorily! The short answer is that even today, with modern toxicological testing, we can’t rule everything out in every case. We certainly can’t exclude ‘poisons’ by sight alone, even before decomposition confuses things.

My cynical view is that they couldn’t / didn’t actually ‘rule out’ poisoning, but that they said it wasn’t poisoning (because they didn’t think it was), and they were believed because they were medical experts. Very few poisons actually leave visible signs, so you really have to do some form of laboratory testing to exclude poisoning… and back then they had very little available to them.

In my opinion, whilst I’m not trying to suggest that they did miss any toxicological causes of death, it is certainly possible that ‘poisoning’ (whether intentional or unintentional) by some substance or other could have been overlooked."

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky.

FYI- Patrick Mulshaw was living at 3, Rupert Street which was a few streets west of Backchurch Lane. He also lived on Goulston Street.

Thanks jerry I know you expressed interest in mulshaw in our pm. Here is another thread of interest on mulshaw which I'm sure you've read. http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=429 What do you make of all this, the board of works, torsos and sewers? Clearly there were sewer workers within yards of the bucks two and mitre sq murders.

[Rosella]

Boards of Guardians were people who administered Workhouses within their particular districts according to the Poor Law, which came in in the 1830's and lasted until 1930.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Rocky,

Mulshaw wasn't a sewer worker, he was a night watchman. His job was simply to make sure no one fell down the hole (or stole it).

Gary

[MrBarnett]

Hi Rocky, I find it interesting that a member of the Board of Works (or Guardians?) is the one who ordered the washing of Annie Chapman's body. I started a thread a couple years ago on it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

Was your thread about the Board of Guardians or the Board of Works? If you have found evidence that Board of Works employees washed Chapman's body then you may be onto something.

It would only remain to establish that Charles Le Grand was fond of a cheese BOARD and it would be game over.


Anon

[jerryd]

Thanks Rocky.
I wonder what the working relationship was between the Whitechapel Board of Works and the Metropolitan Board of works? The Pinchin st arch belonged to one and the Whitehall builders (or architects?) were paying ground rent to the other.

Hi Debs,

First off the Metropolitan Board of Works was only in existence under that name until March of 1889. Then it became known as the London County Council.

Vestries were set up to act in various parishes. The MBW from what I understand was commissioned by the City Corporation but the corporation had no control over them. I have a feeling the vestries were somewhat "rogue" agencies to act as they saw fit under the umbrella of the MBW.