The Whitehall Mystery

[RockySullivan]

But this is a killer who was clearly motivated to disguise the identity of his victims, he even retained the head! Please site an example where a serial killer as alternated between two different signatures.

The reality is that we have a killer who has been reasonably consistent over a period of perhaps 16 years. The idea that he would completely change his ritualistic behaviour, during a brief period in 1888, because he'd inexplicably, but temporarily, lost access to suitable dismemberment sites seems totally far-fetched to me.

And where's the evidence that he had no access to a dismemberment site during the period of the Whitechapel murders?

It seems that two extreme points of view have formed. Thus, some posters seem to think that the Torso victims were not murdered at all and that nearly all, or most, of the Whitechapel victims were killed by different individuals. At the other extreme, all the Whitechapel victims plus all the Torso victims are lumped together, despite their many differences, with a single perpetrator. In fact, Gordon even adds Chapman's victims to the mix!

I reject both extremes.

I just gave you an example the LISK which you brought up. Manorville, NY in 2000, unidentified female dismembered and dumped with a unidentified male who was not dismembered. Females skull turns up ten years later at Gilgo beach along with many Undismembered and many dismembered parts.

If the point was hide id why dump Jackson with her underwear...which in turn led to her id...and the only victim which was.

[Fisherman]

Yes, but he didn't alternate between two very different, but distinct signatures/ritualistic behaviours. As Keppel has pointed out, if you consider the Whitechapel murders from Tabram through to Kelly, a clear evolution in signature behaviour is apparent, including escalation of the ritualistic elements. However, throw the Torso victims into the mix and it makes no sense at all.

Yes, Ridgway DID alternate between very different signatures, thatīs what I just posted.

Exactly what do you think was the Rippers signature? And the torso killers?

[John G]

I just gave you an example the LISK which you brought up. Manorville, NY in 2000, unidentified female dismembered and dumped with a unidentified male who was not dismembered. Females skull turns up ten years later at Gilgo beach along with many Undismembered and many dismembered parts.

If you're referring to the Long Beach serial murders, it has been argued that more than one perpetrator was involved. In other words, more than one killer used Long Beach as a dump site.

The example that you give doesn't suggest a fundamentally different signature/ritualistic behaviour. With the unknown male the killer still used a dump site and prevented the victim from being identified. And how do you know they were killed at the same time?

[Debra A]

If they were abortions of sort, the body disposal suggests to me that murder was the intent. In other words, a certain person sets up shop to perform abortions with the ultimate intent to kill. The victims have no idea what they are getting into.

Jerry-I totally agree! If it was an abortionist that killed Jackson or the Whitehall victim then he was totally off his head, evident by his methods, and his motive had to be murder, luring his victim with the promise of helping her out..
It can't apply to Pinchin (she had just menstruated and had the uterus of a woman who hadn't had children, as did the Rainham victim)

Rocky-|I will catch up eventually! But there does seem to be a 'Board of works' links to the dump sites, from what you've said. Pinchin St was Whitechapel Board of works stone ground, The Whitehall site still belonged to the Metropolitan Board of works and ground rent was being paid to them during construction of New Scotland yard and in Battersea Park there was an area of ground (close to where Elizabeth was found) that was used for stone storage from some sort of dismantled monument IIRC.

[RockySullivan]

If you're referring to the Long Beach serial murders, it has been argued that more than one perpetrator was involved. In other words, more than one killer used Long Beach as a dump site.

The example that you give doesn't suggest a fundamentally different signature/ritualistic behaviour. With the unknown male the killer still used a dump site and prevented the victim from being identified. And how do you know they were killed at the same time?

I've done a bit a research about that case and the specific man and woman from 2000 I mentioned were dumped together one was dismembered and one wasn't. If they weren't killed at exactly the same time it was within a relatively short amount time I'm sure. So here's an example of a killer choosing to dismember one victim and not dismember another which is what you asked for an example of.

This isn't the Gilgo dump site but another one used by the killer 40 miles or so away.

[John G]

I've done a bit a research about that case and the specific man and woman from 2000 I mentioned were dumped together one was dismembered and one wasn't. If they weren't killed at exactly the same time it was within a relatively short amount time I'm sure. So here's an example of a killer choosing to dismember one victim and not dismember another which is what you asked for an example of.

I was looking for examples of where a killer alternated between two completely different signatures/ritualistic behaviours within a short time frame. JtR targeted the genitals, the Torso killer didn't. The Torso killer used dump sites and disguised the identity of his victims, JtR didn't. JtR only targeted victims in Whitechapel, the Torso killer didn't.The torso killer decapitated and retained the heads of his victims, possibly as trophies, JtR didn't.

[John G]

Jerry-I totally agree! If it was an abortionist that killed Jackson or the Whitehall victim then he was totally off his head, evident by his methods, and his motive had to be murder, luring his victim with the promise of helping her out..
It can't apply to Pinchin (she had just menstruated and had the uterus of a woman who hadn't had children, as did the Rainham victim)

Rocky-|I will catch up eventually! But there does seem to be a 'Board of works' links to the dump sites, from what you've said. Pinchin St was Whitechapel Board of works stone ground, The Whitehall site still belonged to the Metropolitan Board of works and ground rent was being paid to them during construction of New Scotland yard and in Battersea Park there was an area of ground (close to where Elizabeth was found) that was used for stone storage from some sort of dismantled monument IIRC.

Hi Debra,

I might be being a little stupid but does that mean that Pinchin and Rainham couldn't have been subjected to botched abortions?

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

I might be being a little stupid but does that mean that Pinchin and Rainham couldn't have been subjected to botched abortions?

Hi John
Maybe I'm being totally off the wall here but I'm guessing a woman would need to be pregnant before she contemplated seeking out a back street abortionist? The uterus in both the Rainham and Pinchin case was the size and shape of women who hadn't had children. At the very least the uterus was not gravid, nor had it been in the last few weeks of life.

[RockySullivan]

I was looking for examples of where a killer alternated between two completely different signatures/ritualistic behaviours within a short time frame. JtR targeted the genitals, the Torso killer didn't. The Torso killer used dump sites and disguised the identity of his victims, JtR didn't. JtR only targeted victims in Whitechapel, the Torso killer didn't.The torso killer decapitated and retained the heads of his victims, possibly as trophies, JtR didn't.

Yes there's an example of a killer alternating between dismemberment and non with the same dump.

[RockySullivan]

Jerry-I totally agree! If it was an abortionist that killed Jackson or the Whitehall victim then he was totally off his head, evident by his methods, and his motive had to be murder, luring his victim with the promise of helping her out..
It can't apply to Pinchin (she had just menstruated and had the uterus of a woman who hadn't had children, as did the Rainham victim)

Rocky-|I will catch up eventually! But there does seem to be a 'Board of works' links to the dump sites, from what you've said. Pinchin St was Whitechapel Board of works stone ground, The Whitehall site still belonged to the Metropolitan Board of works and ground rent was being paid to them during construction of New Scotland yard and in Battersea Park there was an area of ground (close to where Elizabeth was found) that was used for stone storage from some sort of dismantled monument IIRC.

Hi debs! I think this is key to finding the killer! Jerryd can also chime in as he's done some research about the board of works. I believ the killer is connected to the board of works and if I'm not mistaken jerryd found lusk was also connected to the board of works.

[RockySullivan]

According to Jerry's pm lusk and fairclough were both members of the board of works and tr board of works built the victoria embankment and were in charge of the drainage to the thames. Jerry has a theory that there may have been a sewer access through Kelly's apartment and at the grate near eddowes head. Hopefully he will expound upon his theory here. The torso ripper was probably a someone who worked with the sewers either for the board of works or was a company that was contracted to do their work. If one of the whitehall workers had worked on any of the sewers or with the BOW previously I would say he's our man otherwise the killer accessed whitehall through a sewer somehow. The killer is someone comfortable getting down and dirty, a worker who spends their time underground in the sewers.

[Debra A]

According to Jerry's pm lusk and fairclough were both members of the board of works and tr board of works built the victoria embankment and were in charge of the drainage to the thames. Jerry has a theory that there may have been a sewer access through Kelly's apartment and at the grate near eddowes head. Hopefully he will expound upon his theory here. The torso ripper was probably a someone who worked with the sewers either for the board of works or was a company that was contracted to do their work. If one of the whitehall workers had worked on any of the sewers or with the BOW previously I would say he's our man otherwise the killer accessed whitehall through a sewer somehow. The killer is someone comfortable getting down and dirty, a worker who spends their time underground in the sewers.

Which Fairclough, Rocky?

[RockySullivan]

Fairclough who owned the business next to pinchin dump. I wonder if he's connected to jackson boyfriend somehow. Here's the quote from Jerry's pm:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd
Lusk was a member of the Metropolitan Board of Works.
Well that's sonething. Any connection between whitehall & board of works?
Yes matter of fact. The Board of Works built the Victoria Embankment as well as the Chelsea and Albert Embankments. They were also in charge of all main drainage. Everything drained to the Thames.

Thomas Maurice Fairclough- Messrs Fairclough on Christian Street? Remember that reference in the Pinchin torso case? He was also a member of The Board of Works.

Read page 311 here: https://books.google.com/books?id=0M...orks&f=fal se

https://books.google.com/books?id=0MIMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA312&lpg=PA312&dq=thomas+w+fairclough+board+of+works&source=bl&ots=z1P7vH6-45&sig=fiYK5kGXGI7CkSUcuUSgQA20eNE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=U480Va7ENoK2ogSo64GwBA&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=thomas%20w%20fairclough%20board%20of%20works&f=false

[Abby Normal]

Hi debs! I think this is key to finding the killer! Jerryd can also chime in as he's done some research about the board of works. I believ the killer is connected to the board of works and if I'm not mistaken jerryd found lusk was also connected to the board of works.

very interesting

[Debra A]

Thanks Rocky.
I wonder what the working relationship was between the Whitechapel Board of Works and the Metropolitan Board of works? The Pinchin st arch belonged to one and the Whitehall builders (or architects?) were paying ground rent to the other.