The Whitehall Mystery

[John G]

The only plausible explanations which would apply to either a killer or someone else disposing of the parts at different locations as a result of another type of death would be to

1. Hide the evidence of some unlawful act
2. Hide the identity of the victim.
3. Prevent the body parts being found which might point to either or both of the above.

Like I have said previously we have no sketches or detailed descriptions or photos of the location of this so called vault. It may not have been as hidden away as has been suggested and may not have been the type of vault we have come to believe.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

We have the opinion of people who go actually worked there! There view clearly implied that access would have been extremely difficult and that the vault itself was a darkened labyrinth. In fact, as I've noted before, even the site foreman was of the opinion that no one could find the vault unless they knew the site personally or had it minutely described to them.

[Trevor Marriott]

We have the opinion of people who go actually worked there! There view clearly implied that access would have been extremely difficult and that the vault itself was a darkened labyrinth. In fact, as I've noted before, even the site foreman was of the opinion that no one could find the vault unless they knew the site personally or had it minutely described to them.

But lets not lose sight of the fact that we still do not know who put the parts there or for what purpose, or how the victim died.

So perhaps your good self and others who it would seem favor a serial killer should perhaps take a step back and not be so confident of that belief.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

But lets not lose sight of the fact that we still do not know who put the parts there or for what purpose, or how the victim died.

So perhaps your good self and others who it would seem favor a serial killer should perhaps take a step back and not be so confident of that belief.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Maybe you could teach us the fine art of taking a step back, Trevor, given the - ehhrrrm - vast experience you have in this field?

[RockySullivan]

"The arm was surrounded at the upper part with a piece of string, which made an impression on the skin, and when it was loosened there was a great deal of blood in the arm."

Does this not suggest a tourniquet ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I don't know. He says not an anatomist but someone who knows joints? What does that indicate? Why the pieces of newspaper staged on the torso with animal blood?

[Fisherman]

I don't know. He says not an anatomist but someone who knows joints? What does that indicate? Why the pieces of newspaper staged on the torso with animal blood?

That is a very curious detail indeed. I can´t help but to think that it may involve some sort of message or commentary involving the press - or to be more precise, it´s coverage. But that has to remain a guess only. What do you make of it yourself?

[RockySullivan]

That is a very curious detail indeed. I can´t help but to think that it may involve some sort of message or commentary involving the press - or to be more precise, it´s coverage. But that has to remain a guess only. What do you make of it yourself?

Well one clipping was from the aug 24 echo. It would be helpful to find a copy of this edition, but aug 23 was the day of the verdict in the Tabram inquest. I would assume the echo on august 24 covered the TaBram verdict since it was the following day and i think the killer was showing the police this was his work.

[Fisherman]

Well one clipping was from the aug 24 echo. It would be helpful to find a copy of this edition, but aug 23 was the day of the verdict in the Tabram inquest. I would assume the echo on august 24 covered the TaBram verdict since it was the following day and i think the killer was showing the police this was his work.

The Echo snippet was the one found on the ground nearby the torso, right? And the Chronicle parts were the ones actually found on the torso itself, if I am correct.

Did both the Echo material and the Chronicle ditto have blood on them? And the inquest quote you posted, from what paper is it? Have you found confirmation in other sources on the issue?
The Tabram inquest is covered in the Echo of the 23:rd, but of course there may have been further information on the murder in the next days issue of the paper.

The combination of the date of the Echo snippet and the blood on the paper pieces makes for tantalizing grounds for speculating about a wish on behalf of the killer to blame the papers for something, of course. Proving such a thing is a lot harder to do, however...

[Trevor Marriott]

I don't know. He says not an anatomist but someone who knows joints? What does that indicate? Why the pieces of newspaper staged on the torso with animal blood?

The Doctors comments about the lack of anatomy skill shown should be treated with caution. The doctor is trained in how to cut off an arm or a leg for the purposed of amputation as part of a surgical operation.

But would anyone else wanting to do the same for some unlawful purpose bother to be so precise and conform with medical guidelines? I would suggest the answer is no, remove it the easiest and quickest way possible at the joint.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

I don't know. He says not an anatomist but someone who knows joints? What does that indicate? Why the pieces of newspaper staged on the torso with animal blood?

I think they were trying to suggest that a butcher or hunter would be more used to opening joints to remove the limbs of animals and a surgeon wouldn't necessarily perform an amputation by removing a limb at the joint and so might be less practiced in the technique.

[John G]

I think they were trying to suggest that a butcher or hunter would be more used to opening joints to remove the limbs of animals and a surgeon wouldn't necessarily perform an amputation by removing a limb at the joint and so might be less practiced in the technique.

Hello Debra,

Yes, but of course Dr Biggs considered this opinion to be "quite bizarre." (Marriott, 2015).

[John G]

Well one clipping was from the aug 24 echo. It would be helpful to find a copy of this edition, but aug 23 was the day of the verdict in the Tabram inquest. I would assume the echo on august 24 covered the TaBram verdict since it was the following day and i think the killer was showing the police this was his work.

This may be little more than a coincidence. For example, another interesting incident happened on 24 August: a right foot and left leg were found near to Guildford railway station, possibly tossed from a train. It was subsequently discovered that they were the remains of a bear!

[Debra A]

Hello Debra,

Yes, but of course Dr Biggs considered this opinion to be "quite bizarre." (Marriott, 2015).

Hi John
Yes, he did.
But in some ways what the LVP doctors said about doctors maybe being less practiced in the opening of joints makes sense if it was common practice to amputate legs mid-thigh or below the knee, rather than at the hip or knee joints.
Someone once posted civil war medical diagrams showing leg amputation here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8571

[RockySullivan]

This may be little more than a coincidence. For example, another interesting incident happened on 24 August: a right foot and left leg were found near to Guildford railway station, possibly tossed from a train. It was subsequently discovered that they were the remains of a bear!

Could the animal blood have a connection to that?

how did someone mistake bear parts for human at first? sounds silly but are we sure it was a bear?

[Debra A]

Could the animal blood have a connection to that?

how did someone mistake bear parts for human at first? sounds silly but are we sure it was a bear?

Hi Rocky
It was definitely a bear's leg. I mentioned it much earlier in the thread. It had been discarded by a man who bought it to eat but didn't like the tatse. It had been boiled and skinned, which made it look more like human flesh.

Re animal blood- I wouldn't be surprised if Victorian butchers used old newspapers to wrap meat up.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky
It was definitely a bear's leg. I mentioned it much earlier in the thread. It had been discarded by a man who bought it to eat but didn't like the tatse. It had been boiled and skinned, which made it look more like human flesh.

Re animal blood- I wouldn't be surprised if Victorian butchers used old newspapers to wrap meat up.

That's the first thing that comes to mind is a butcher with the animal blood and also seems like what bonds assistant was inferring as you said but it sounds like the pieces of the chronicle on the body were in small pieces...which doesnt sound like the way a butcher would use newspaper. Rereading the whitehall inquest string seems to be a significant part of the torso killers disposal method.

George Budgen deposed: I live in Salisbury-buildings, Walworth, and am a bricklayer’s labourer, in the employ of Messrs. Grover. I was in this vault last Tuesday afternoon, just before three o’clock. I went there because my foreman, Mr. Cheney, told me there was a parcel there, and I was to examine it. I looked at it, and found that the top was bare, and the rest wrapped in some old cloth, but could make nothing of it. I thought it was some old bacon at first. I took hold of the strings around it, and dragged it into the light and cut the strings, three or four in number. On opening the old wrappers I saw that the parcel contained part of a human body.
[Coroner]How long before had you been in the vault? - Not for a long time. I had no occasion to go there.
[Coroner]Had you ever seen the parcel before? - No. I took a lamp down; without it I should not have been able to see anything. It was as dark as the darkest night. The police afterwards took charge of the remains.
[Coroner]What was said to you when you were sent to the vault? - The foreman only asked me to go and see what the parcel was.

Bond: The arms had been removed at the shoulder joints by several incisions, the cuts having apparently been made obliquely from above downwards, and then around the arm. Over the body were clearly defined marks, where string had been tied. It appeared to have been wrapped up in a very skilful manner.

The wrapping and strings might indicate profession of the killer?

Inspctr Marshall:

The string with which the parcel was tied was a miscellaneous lot. One piece is of sash-cord, and the rest is of different sizes, and there is also a piece of black tape.