The Whitehall Mystery

[John G]

I've just found this reported inquest testimony, in respect of the Whitehall Torso, from another witness, a workman called Ernest Hedge. Referring to the Saturday, 2 days before the parcel was discovered he stated: "...I looked into the very corner with the light for a hammer. I am quite sure the parcel could not have been there without me seeing it."

[Debra A]

There could have been a number of reasons why the foetus at 7 months needed to be remove ever heard of a premature birth ?

As to the use of your quotes you are being pernickety.

The first quotes were yours and the second to highlight the doctors comments

I am certainty not going to argue on insignificant trivialities

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

No, it's not insignificant or picky to ask you not to misquote me, which you have done. People reading might not be aware the quotes in bold are yours and I don't want the stuff you've said about caesarians to be associated with me thanks very much!

[Debra A]

There could have been a number of reasons why the foetus at 7 months needed to be remove ever heard of a premature birth ?

Yes, premature birth is when a child delivers because the mother has gone into labour early.
There was no incision made across the abdomen just above the pubes to show a caesarian had been performed. The incision was from ribs to pubes and the skin removed in flaps that included the external genitals and part of the skin of the buttock.
Again, i'd say if that was someone's idea of an 'operation' to assist in childbirth then that individual was a seriously deluded sick person very capable of serial murder! Which he could well have been.

[Debra A]

Hello Debra,

From Trow's book: " Nevertheless, the animal found the missing left arm buried below where it had found the leg and foot." (Trow, 2011) Apparently the police returned with the dog, after dark, on the same day that the terrier found the left leg and foot, Wednesday 17 October. The Times is cited, but no date given for the citation.

At the inquest Dr Bond stated that he believed the leg had been there for some weeks. He was also of the opinion that the Torso must also have been there for some significant time. However, this is contradicted by witnesses, i.e the workman, who stated that it couldn't have been there prior to the weekend of 29/30 September: Frederick Windborn, for example, discovered the Torso parcel in the same recess where he'd left his tools on the 28th September.

Thanks, John
I just bought the book on Kindle to save keep asking you!
I'll check out those references.
I was aware of the workmens' testimony but still got the impression that their evidence wasn't accepted wholeheartedly by everyone involved and some thought it was possible the workmen just hadn't seen it.

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, premature birth is when a child delivers because the mother has gone into labour early.
There was no incision made across the abdomen just above the pubes to show a caesarian had been performed. The incision was from ribs to pubes and the skin removed in flaps that included the external genitals and part of the skin of the buttock.
Again, i'd say if that was someone's idea of an 'operation' to assist in childbirth then that individual was a seriously deluded sick person very capable of serial murder! Which he could well have been.

There are many plausible explanations as to how these body parts càme to be found none are conclusive to suggest murder or otherwise

However there are certain factors which do hive us a pointer. In the case of Jackson that has to be the anal plug and what it was made off and what these were used for back then.Burial at sea is a non starter so that leaves some form of medical procedure
Now I think even you have to agree on those points !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

Hello Debra,

From Trow's book: " Nevertheless, the animal found the missing left arm buried below where it had found the leg and foot." (Trow, 2011) Apparently the police returned with the dog, after dark, on the same day that the terrier found the left leg and foot, Wednesday 17 October. The Times is cited, but no date given for the citation.

At the inquest Dr Bond stated that he believed the leg had been there for some weeks. He was also of the opinion that the Torso must also have been there for some significant time. However, this is contradicted by witnesses, i.e the workman, who stated that it couldn't have been there prior to the weekend of 29/30 September: Frederick Windborn, for example, discovered the Torso parcel in the same recess where he'd left his tools on the 28th September.

I've checked all the articles in the Times and on Oct 18 it does mention the police returned secretly to the vault after finding the leg but there is no mention of another arm being found. The following day, 19th, it is mentioned that Dr Bond was of the opinion that the leg recently found matched both the body found in the vault and the previously discovered arm (the one found in the Thames) Bond and Hebbert give evidence only about one arm, right up until the final inquest verdict reported in the Times on the 23rd October.
Trow's diagram of the Whitehall torso division is also incorrect-the leg had been divided at the knee joint, not the middle of the thigh.

Also, at the final inquest hearing, it was mentioned that a board had been leaning against the wall in the vault and police felt this must had obscured the workmen's view of the body and they were mistaken about the length of time it had been there. Bond thought the heavy staining on the wall showed the body had been resting against it for a number of weeks.

[Debra A]

There are many plausible explanations as to how these body parts càme to be found none are conclusive to suggest murder or otherwise

However there are certain factors which do hive us a pointer. In the case of Jackson that has to be the anal plug and what it was made off and what these were used for back then.Burial at sea is a non starter so that leaves some form of medical procedure
Now I think even you have to agree on those points !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I don't agree with your idea of how an 'abortion' was performed. I don't agree she had an illegal 'caesarian' if such a thing ever existed as a crime!
I have clearly given my own thoughts on how abortion could have figured in Elizabeth's case a few times now and my ideas are at least based on research into abortion practices.

[Trevor Marriott]

I don't agree with your idea of how an 'abortion' was performed. I don't agree she had an illegal 'caesarian' if such a thing ever existed as a crime!
I have clearly given my own thoughts on how abortion could have figured in Elizabeth's case a few times now and my ideas are at least based on research into abortion practices.

Well you ducked the salient points I raised.

What you seem to not be able to understand with regards to abortions practices are that they were probably all not as straightforward as you have been led to believe from what you have read.

An administering of some noxious substance in the first instance might have killed someone before any procedure was carried out. Secondly anyone being subjected to an abortion procedure as you know may have later died from poisoning etc and may have gone back to the abortionist for further treatment and then died perhaps weeks after the abortion. Again all good reasons for the back st medico to want to get rid of the body.

You seem reluctant to accept wilful murder, but even more reluctant to accept something else despite Dr Biggs giving you expert advice on these torsos.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

Thanks, John
I just bought the book on Kindle to save keep asking you!
I'll check out those references.
I was aware of the workmens' testimony but still got the impression that their evidence wasn't accepted wholeheartedly by everyone involved and some thought it was possible the workmen just hadn't seen it.

I would say to be cautious when accepting everything Trow writes on the torso cases.
As an aside, but seeing as I've mentioned Trow's book now- his two descriptions of Bond's findings in the Mylett case seem confused , conflicting and uncertain of Bond's position on the matter.
BTW-alcohol was reportedly found in Mylett's stomach by Dr Bond; the equivalent of a teaspoon of alcohol in a tablespoon of stomach contents. Trow repeats the long held belief that no alcohol was detected in her system.

[Debra A]

Well you ducked the salient points I raised.

What you seem to not be able to understand with regards to abortions practices are that they were probably all not as straightforward as you have been led to believe from what you have read.

An administering of some noxious substance in the first instance might have killed someone before any procedure was carried out. Secondly anyone being subjected to an abortion procedure as you know may have later died from poisoning etc and may have gone back to the abortionist for further treatment and then died perhaps weeks after the abortion. Again all good reasons for the back st medico to want to get rid of the body.

You seem reluctant to accept wilful murder, but even more reluctantnging half to accept something else despite Dr Biggs giving you expert advice on these torsos.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, if you had actually read what I'd written instead of just guessing, you'd know I believe if Elizabeth's death was abortion related she had to have been poisoned and died and was dismembered to hide the crime, the foetus removed to facilitate dismemberment!! I have said it close on half a dozen times now. What I am not willing to do is agree with you that this was definitely the cause of her death and rule out the possibility of the four torso cases being linked through serial murder.

People can decide for themselves which scenario seems more likely as far as abortion practices and 'illegal caesarians' go! I have done my homework on it and presented my findings. Perhaps you are able to cite a case of abortion being performed through abdominal surgery or a case of an illegal caesarian resulting in death?

It's you who isn't accepting Dr Biggs opinion. I think he's wonderful!
He clearly shows that he thinks your idea about the bodies being disposed of after being used as medical specimens is unlikely and doesn't think much to the abortion theory either (but doesn't rule them out as he is open minded) and says dismemberment crimes are normally to cover a homicide. He certainly doesn't rule out serial murder as a possible link either.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, if you had actually read what I'd written instead of just guessing, you'd know I believe if Elizabeth's death was abortion related she had to have been poisoned and died and was dismembered to hide the crime, the foetus removed to facilitate dismemberment!! I have said it close on half a dozen times now. What I am not willing to do is agree with you that this was definitely the cause of her death and rule out the possibility of the four torso cases being linked through serial murder.

People can decide for themselves which scenario seems more likely as far as abortion practices and 'illegal caesarians' go! I have done my homework on it and presented my findings. Perhaps you are able to cite a case of abortion being performed through abdominal surgery or a case of an illegal caesarian resulting in death?

It's you who isn't accepting Dr Biggs opinion. I think he's wonderful!
He clearly shows that he thinks your idea about the bodies being disposed of after being used as medical specimens is unlikely and doesn't think much to the abortion theory either (but doesn't rule them out as he is open minded) and says dismemberment crimes are normally to cover a homicide. He certainly doesn't rule out serial murder as a possible link either.

He also says anything is possible, which is the right and proper way to asses and evaluate these torsos, that's why we have switched from The Torso Murders to the Torso Mysteries, because murder cannot be proven in all the cases but cannot be ruled out. Each case has to be judged ad assessed on its merits given the information available for us to make an unbiased judgment.

Despite what he says, we know that women were dying as a result of illegal back street operations because it is factually recorded as such.

I had to go back to him and put to him the scenario of a female dying at the home of a back street medico, to which he accepted that there would be a need to dispose of the body under those circumstances.

We both accept that Jackson was not the subject of murder by a serial killer so why are we arguing about her case?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

Hello Debra,

From Trow's book: " Nevertheless, the animal found the missing left arm buried below where it had found the leg and foot." (Trow, 2011) Apparently the police returned with the dog, after dark, on the same day that the terrier found the left leg and foot, Wednesday 17 October. The Times is cited, but no date given for the citation.

Hi again, John
I just got the time to check through Rob Clack's excellent article on the Whitehall case back in Ripperologist 133 (Ripperologist is a free to subscribe to and old issues can be downloaded for free too) and he makes no mention of another arm begin found in the vault either and his newspaper sources number into the hundreds, including the Times.

[Debra A]

He also says anything is possible, which is the right and proper way to asses and evaluate these torsos

Yes, which includes looking at them as a possible series.

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, which includes looking at them as a possible series.

A series of failed illegal medical procedures ?

[Debra A]

A series of failed illegal medical procedures ?

Jack the crap appendix nicker.