The Whitehall Mystery

[Debra A]

Tidy, Charles Meymott. Legal medicine. Vol. 2. London: Smith, Elder, 1882-1883.

[martin wilson]

Hi all

The sentences for 'feloniously using an instrument to procure the miscarriage of _' could be severe.
The Old Bailey Online has a range of sentencing from 5 to 15 years penal servitude.

While in the case of a fatality the sentence could be the severest.

Weekly Mail 14th August 1880

ANOTHER MURDER BY QUACKS. (relevant quotes)

Robert Slade Culmore 44, and his wife Jane Culmore 42, were jointly charged on Friday week at the Central Criminal Court with the murder of Mary Budge by using unlawful violence to procure a miscarriage.


His Lordship having summed up, the jury found both prisoners guilty.
When called upon, both prisoners protested their innocence.
They were sentenced to death in the usual way.

All the best.

[John G]

Hi all

The sentences for 'feloniously using an instrument to procure the miscarriage of _' could be severe.
The Old Bailey Online has a range of sentencing from 5 to 15 years penal servitude.

While in the case of a fatality the sentence could be the severest.

Weekly Mail 14th August 1880

ANOTHER MURDER BY QUACKS. (relevant quotes)

Robert Slade Culmore 44, and his wife Jane Culmore 42, were jointly charged on Friday week at the Central Criminal Court with the murder of Mary Budge by using unlawful violence to procure a miscarriage.


His Lordship having summed up, the jury found both prisoners guilty.
When called upon, both prisoners protested their innocence.
They were sentenced to death in the usual way.

All the best.

The penalty for murder would be even more severe!

[John G]

In the revised version of his book, Trevor writes that a portion of the torso was one of the first parts of the body washed up at Horselydown, that's incorrect ( the correct version is in my casebook dissertation that Trevor took some of his information from) -it was a parcel containing the uterus, placenta and umbilical cord plus the flaps of skin from the abdomen-parcelled separately from other portions of the body- for what reason?

The obvious reason for distributing body parts in separate locations would be for shock value. That was probably the reason Kelly's body parts were left on display in Dorset Street, rather than removed as trophies, i. e. as in the case of Chapman and Eddowes.

[martin wilson]

Hi John.

Just background, I think it's fair to infer that there was a powerful incentive to conceal a body in the event of a botched abortion, if it's the work of the back street abortionist or the quack.

Trev's the one with the expert, it would help if we could see that the incisions made corresponded to a known medical procedure of the time, or the type typical of an anatomy class.

All the best.

[John G]

Hi John.

Just background, I think it's fair to infer that there was a powerful incentive to conceal a body in the event of a botched abortion, if it's the work of the back street abortionist or the quack.

Trev's the one with the expert, it would help if we could see that the incisions made corresponded to a known medical procedure of the time, or the type typical of an anatomy class.

All the best.

Hi Martin,

Yes, but as Debra points out, there would be no need for abdominal incisions in the case of a botched abortion. Therefore, if the intent was to carry out some form of medical procedure, I think we must be looking at some crazy wannabe surgeon- mind you, that at least might explain the Frankenstein connection! In any event, carrying out such reckless procedures, without apparent concern for the wellbeing of the patient/ victim, would surely be a case of murder.

[martin wilson]

Hi John.

Fair point, as is the one about shock value, which I think is very interesting.
I would argue you can't be missing if you are already known to be dead. it may be that the disarticulation served the dual purpose of ease of transport and an attempt to avoid identification.
It's possible then that no murder had taken place, but for reasons unknown someone wanted to continue or repeat the hysteria of the autumn of terror.

Well as I'm speculating, I say reasons unknown, but I do wonder where a certain Belgian was at the time.

All the best.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Martin,

Yes, but as Debra points out, there would be no need for abdominal incisions in the case of a botched abortion. Therefore, if the intent was to carry out some form of medical procedure, I think we must be looking at some crazy wannabe surgeon- mind you, that at least might explain the Frankenstein connection! In any event, carrying out such reckless procedures, without apparent concern for the wellbeing of the patient/ victim, would surely be a case of murder.

If Jackson was 7 months pregnant then there would be a need to open up the abdomen

With regards to Elizabeth Jackson I note the extract for Debs dissertation

"Dr Bond was instantly of the opinion that the body part was that of a young woman and that an attempt had been made to carry out an illegal operation, which had been successful"

The he later changed his mind

"Dr Thomas Bond handed the coroner a lengthy report on the medical findings and the description of the woman was again repeated including the fact that she was pregnant by about seven to eight months and undelivered at the time of her death, the unborn child having been removed, by an incision into the uterus after the mother's death"

I would suggest that there would have been no way to positively conclude that the child was removed after or before death.

We also know that a foetus was also found in the thames. Of course we cannot say if it is connected but I would suggest there is a strong possibility.

Finally going back to Dr Biggs who rightly makes the comment that there was no way back then of positively linking all the body parts to the same person.

Was Jackson murdered and dismembered or did she die during some back street medical procedure connected to her pregnancy? Or are some going to stick with the serial killer theory?

https://www.trevormarriott

[Trevor Marriott]

The obvious reason for distributing body parts in separate locations would be for shock value. That was probably the reason Kelly's body parts were left on display in Dorset Street, rather than removed as trophies, i. e. as in the case of Chapman and Eddowes.

Where do you arrive at shock value?

The person who distributed the remains may have done so at different locations by throwing them in the river, that must have meant he wanted to dispose of them permanently and for them not be found, so you theory doesnt stand up.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John Wheat]

If Jackson was 7 months pregnant then there would be a need to open up the abdomen

With regards to Elizabeth Jackson I note the extract for Debs dissertation

"Dr Bond was instantly of the opinion that the body part was that of a young woman and that an attempt had been made to carry out an illegal operation, which had been successful"

The he later changed his mind

"Dr Thomas Bond handed the coroner a lengthy report on the medical findings and the description of the woman was again repeated including the fact that she was pregnant by about seven to eight months and undelivered at the time of her death, the unborn child having been removed, by an incision into the uterus after the mother's death"

I would suggest that there would have been no way to positively conclude that the child was removed after or before death.

We also know that a foetus was also found in the thames. Of course we cannot say if it is connected but I would suggest there is a strong possibility.

Finally going back to Dr Biggs who rightly makes the comment that there was no way back then of positively linking all the body parts to the same person.

Was Jackson murdered and dismembered or did she die during some back street medical procedure connected to her pregnancy? Or are some going to stick with the serial killer theory?

www.trevormarriott

To Trevor

Are you of the opinion that all the Thames Torso bodies were as a result of botched abortions? If so why would an abortionist or abortionists leave body parts to be found at various dump sites?

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

Wentworth Bellsmith

Has anyone ever considered Wentworth Bellsmith Ripper suspect as the Thames Torso Killer rather than Jack the Ripper? Info is scarce on Bellsmith however with him arriving in the London area in 1873 and leaving for New York shortly after the Pinchin Street Torso murder must put him in the frame for all the Torso murders or at least he should be considered a better candidate for the Thames Torso Murders than he is to those murders attributed to Jack the Ripper. Also it's worth noting that some have expressed the opinion that the due to the type of serial killer the Thames Torso Killer was that he would be likely to be taller than his victims, Bellsmith at 5ft10 is taller than the estimated heights of all the Thames Torso victims with the estimated height of the tallest victim being either 5ft8 or 5ft9 according to R. Michael Gordan.

[John G]

Where do you arrive at shock value?

The person who distributed the remains may have done so at different locations by throwing them in the river, that must have meant he wanted to dispose of them permanently and for them not be found, so you theory doesnt stand up.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hello Trevor,

As the vast majority of the body parts were found I'm afraid I would consider this argument to be completely untenable. I mean, if I cite just two examples: how did the perpetrator expect that the body parts relating to Liz Jackson, thrown into the garden of Sir Percy Shelley's house, to remain undetected? And how did the perpetrator expect the Pinchin Street Torso, placed in the open near to two sleeping drunks, to remain undetected?

[John G]

Has anyone ever considered Wentworth Bellsmith Ripper suspect as the Thames Torso Killer rather than Jack the Ripper? Info is scarce on Bellsmith however with him arriving in the London area in 1873 and leaving for New York shortly after the Pinchin Street Torso murder must put him in the frame for all the Torso murders or at least he should be considered a better candidate for the Thames Torso Murders than he is to those murders attributed to Jack the Ripper. Also it's worth noting that some have expressed the opinion that the due to the type of serial killer the Thames Torso Killer was that he would be likely to be taller than his victims, Bellsmith at 5ft10 is taller than the estimated heights of all the Thames Torso victims with the estimated height of the tallest victim being either 5ft8 or 5ft9 according to R. Michael Gordan.

Hello John,

Well, as you say, the dates certainly fit: the Battersea Torso was 1873, and this victim was definitely murdered.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Trevor,

As the vast majority of the body parts were found I'm afraid I would consider this argument to be completely untenable. I mean, if I cite just two examples: how did the perpetrator expect that the body parts relating to Liz Jackson, thrown into the garden of Sir Percy Shelley's house, to remain undetected? And how did the perpetrator expect the Pinchin Street Torso, placed in the open near to two sleeping drunks, to remain undetected?

Then why not dispose of all the body parts on dry land that would be more of a shock and why even bother to parcel them up that would be even more shocking.
I am sorry but the serial killer theory is a non starter for me

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Harry D]

Then why not dispose of all the body parts on dry land that would be more of a shock and why even bother to parcel them up that would be even more shocking.
I am sorry but the serial killer theory is a non starter for me

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Couldn't one reverse that and ask why didn't the killer dump all of the parts in the Thames?