The Whitehall Mystery

[Trevor Marriott]

A minute ago you were telling me Martin had posted news clippings that support your medical specimen argument but when I point out that the news clipping actually says the specimens were treated with chemicals and were as such, immediately recognised as specimens you object! I haven't cherry picked anything, I've pointed something out from Martin's clipping-that discarded medical specimens were recognisable as such.
We have a similar scenario in 1884 where portions of a body found were burred as they were recognised as medical specimens.

Debs

You cannot prove that every body or every body part used for medical research was treated in the same way.

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[Debra A]

Debs

Martin Wilson has kindly posted two newspaper articles which clearly add weight to the possibility.

Whereas I respect the professional opinions of experts like Dr Biggs they do only give opinions and as is known Dr Biggs opinions on some of The Whitechapel Murders issues differs from another forensic pathologist who I used several years ago. So i say again "Anyhting is possible"

Now i dont want to get embroiled in heated arguments on these issues because some want to readily believe that these torsos were as a direct result of murder. Both you and I agreed previous that there was not enough evidence to substantiate that and agreed to call them The Torso Mysteries which is what i am sticking with and others would be wise to do the same.

The reality is we are never going to know the real truth about any of these torsos so all this talk about a Torso serial killer should now come to and end, but will it?
. if a person doesn't enjoy that type of discussion teh
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It doesn't matter what we call them, Trevor, people like discussing the torso cases and throwing up ideas and scenarios and as long as their ideas are based on the evidence available (and your counter arguments often aren't, sorry) what's the harm in that? Discussion and debate is good, it sparks new lines of research. People only get heated when the same sweeping under-researched generalisations are thrown in time and time again as a lazy counter argument.

[Debra A]

Debs

You cannot prove that every body or every body part used for medical research was treated in the same way.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Comments were made by the medical men at the postmortems of these torso cases that the parts found were not medical specimens as they hadn't been treated or they hadn't been removed in the correct way, as a surgeon, or a medical student would be taught.

[Trevor Marriott]

Comments were made by the medical men at the postmortems of these torso cases that the parts found were not medical specimens as they hadn't been treated or they hadn't been removed in the correct way, as a surgeon, or a medical student would be taught.

One final point. I would suggest that many back st medics were self taught or learned their "skills" outside of medical student training.so their handiwork might seem unconventional to a trained eye.

After all lets look as dismemberment whether you be a killer or a back st medic and you want to cut up a body and dispose of it. How many different ways are there to cut a head off? How many different ways are there to cut off arms and legs, very few i would suggest, the quickest and easiest would seem to be a good bet.

I would suggest the doctors were comparing the cuts to the way they would carry out limb amputations, big difference


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[Fisherman]

Debs

You cannot prove that every body or every body part used for medical research was treated in the same way.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

How would you say that a body that was used for medical research was laid on the slab, Trevor - clothed or unclothed?

[John G]

John
The body parts have to be disposed of somewhere.

You theory about taunting the police is simply wild and speculative.

As I said previous if the killer wanted to do that he could have

written to the police
written to the press
left notes attached to the body parts

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Hello Trevor,

I think he was far too subtle to leave notes. Your correct that the body parts had to be left somewhere, but scaling a 9ft fence and placing the parts deep in the pitch black bowels of the Scotland Yard building makes no sense of the purpose was simply to dispose of the victims. Moreover, as Dr Biggs pointed out, dismemberment is usually done for the purpose of disguising some homicide, so I think there should be a basic presumption that the victims were murdered, especially as there is no clear evidence of any other cause.

I also find it significant that the last two victims, Jackson and Pinchin Street, were badly mutilated. This could represent an evolution of signature, as the perpetrator progresses accoss a continuum of escalating violence.

[Debra A]

One final point. I would suggest that many back st medics were self taught or learned their "skills" outside of medical student training.so their handiwork might seem unconventional to a trained eye.

After all lets look as dismemberment whether you be a killer or a back st medic and you want to cut up a body and dispose of it. How many different ways are there to cut a head off? How many different ways are there to cut off arms and legs, very few i would suggest, the quickest and easiest would seem to be a good bet.

I would suggest the doctors were comparing the cuts to the way they would carry out limb amputations, big difference


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To be blunt-Back street abortionists thrust un-sterilized instruments, knitting needles, hooks into womens' vaginas to enter the uterus through the cervix and apply violence to disrupt the pregnancy.This was often performed by other women, the women regarded as midwives who also delivered babies.

Elizabeth had no money to pay a 'medic' as you call it.
A 'medic' would have done the same procedure described above, with a sound, whether trained or not.

So, if you are actually proposing that an untrained medic performed an abortion on Elizabeth by removing flaps of abdominal skin still with the external organs of generation and buttock skin attached then entered the uterus via an incision and removed the foetus, while Elizabeth was still alive then you are describing a very sick individual who murdered a woman..

[John G]

In what sense, John?
In the 1884 Tottenham 'abortion' dismemberment case other remains found at a simialr time had been burred without an inquiry because they were recognised as medical specimens.

Hello Debra,

But I doubt that the Battersea case was a medical specimen: death was as a result of a blow to the right temple which crushed the skull. Lime was also used to aid decomposition as was also the case with the Tottenham Torso.

[Debra A]

I also find it significant that the last two victims, Jackson and Pinchin Street, were badly mutilated. This good represent an evolution of signature, as the perpetrator progresses accoss a continuum of escalating violence.

Hi Johnn
The Rainham torso had the same incision running ribs to pubes as the Pinchin St torso, it was also divided into 3 sections, the same as Elizabeth's torso.

[John G]

Hi Johnn
The Rainham torso had the same incision running ribs to pubes as the Pinchin St torso, it was also divided into 3 sections, the same as Elizabeth's torso.

Hi Debra,

Thanks for this, that's very interesting. It does seem to indicate that the same perpetrator may have been responsible for all three crimes.

[Debra A]

Hello Debra,

But I doubt that the Battersea case was a medical specimen: death was as a result of a blow to the right temple which crushed the skull. Lime was also used to aid decomposition as was also the case with the Tottenham Torso.

Hi John
Yes, then that would be a violent death/murder.
Lime was available for anyone to use (Wainwright used it on harriet Lane's remains to stop the odour I believe) but charging veins or arteries with chemicals was a specialized medical procedure and my point was that other doctors recognised when a discarded body part or organ had been a legitimate medical specimen (as in the case martin's newspaper article was about)
None of the torso remains had the tell tale signs that they had come from a dissecting room.
However, if, like Trevor seems to be proposing, we have a lunatic 'wanna-be' medic running around performing abortions on women by abdominal incision and removing half their skin in the process then chopping them up any old how when they didn't survive the ordeal, then the doctors would have their work cut out and be forgiven for not recognising that as a discarded 'medical specimen' at post mortem!

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi John
Yes, then that would be a violent death/murder.
Lime was available for anyone to use (Wainwright used it on harriet Lane's remains to stop the odour I believe) but charging veins or arteries with chemicals was a specialized medical procedure and my point was that other doctors recognised when a discarded body part or organ had been a legitimate medical specimen (as in the case martin's newspaper article was about)
None of the torso remains had the tell tale signs that they had come from a dissecting room.
However, if, like Trevor seems to be proposing, we have a lunatic 'wanna-be' medic running around performing abortions on women by abdominal incision and removing half their skin in the process then chopping them up any old how when they didn't survive the ordeal, then the doctors would have their work cut out and be forgiven for not recognising that as a discarded 'medical specimen' at post mortem!

I am not proposing a lunatic I am applying a sensible approach to the fact that anything is possible and I will leave it at that

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[Fisherman]

I am not proposing a lunatic I am applying a sensible approach to the fact that anything is possible and I will leave it at that

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Maybe you would care to sensibly answer my question, Trevor: How are bodies meant for medical research put on the slab, clothed or unclothed?

[Fisherman]

It does not seem as though Trevor is willing to answer my question.

Pity, that.

If he had done so, I would be able to show him how one of the torso cases involves evidence clearly speaking of foul play.

I would also be able to point to in which manner the killer (for that he was) most probably approached his victim in this case.

... plus I would provide Trevor with another opportunity to shout "wild speculation".

One would have thought that should have been enough.

[Trevor Marriott]

How would you say that a body that was used for medical research was laid on the slab, Trevor - clothed or unclothed?

What a stupid question.

Are you trying to prove a point ?

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