The Whitehall Mystery

[Abby Normal]

I agree, I don't think there is any harm in exploring the possibilities and see where it leads. After all we now have two lots of red tape where we once had a rose tattoo!
Elizabeth's genitals were targeted in the same way Mary Jane Kelly's were. The description of the damage in that area is so similar.

Thanks Debra!
couple more follow ups, if you don't mind? : )

The red tape was found in the Gill case and what other?
Did the Gill boy have organs removed?

Yes, it definitely seems that Jackson and Kelly are the two most similar cases between the two series!

[Abby Normal]

I don't understand what you mean by this, Fisherman. I simply forgot how many pieces the Rainham torso was divided into (it's been ten years since I first read Hebberts work on them in 'a system of legal medicine') but knew there was a pelvic divide, which Trow missed, so mentioned it.

I think fish was referring to Trow not you. : )

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Thanks. Yes, it's clearly important to debate these issues whilst keeping an open mind, although I'm sometimes as guilty as anyone in taking intransigent positions!

I don't know if you saw my updated post but I referred to what Dr Phillips' stated at the Pinchin Street Torso inquest , i.e that the mutilations were probably undertaken for the purposes of disposing of the body. And Swanson also noted that the perpetrator didn't target the genital area; of course, Keppel pointed out that JtR specifically targeted the breasts, genitalia and sexual organs of his victims, and categorized him as a lust killer (Keppel 2005)

However, I do believe that the all the victims from 1884 (the Tottenham Torso) onward were murdered. I also consider it possible that the earlier Putney and Battersea victims were part of the same series. Thus, many of the body parts of the Tottenham victim appeared slightly crushed, as if they'd been piled on top of one another: some of the 1873 finds exhibit similar characteristics.

I think that anyone who seeks to argue that the deaths were accidental has to explain why the perpetrator would go to such extreme risks when disposing of the body parts, especially when he could just have thrown them in the Thames. That suggests a clear signature characteristic, i.e that the perpetrator was a thrill killer, and also a thrill seeker!

As I've noted, I think we are dealing with a perpetrator with a macabre sense of humour, who took delight in shocking the public and humiliating the authorities, and who may have had access to a boat!

HI JohnG
No I didn't see your updated post-but the points you make here are all good and valid. The boat aspect is interesting. Perhaps Torso man picked up the women in a boat.

Works for me at the beach all the time! ; )

[John G]

Yes, John. The uterus was opened with an incision and the foetus removed.
It's difficult to know whether organs were removed or 'lost' but I do find these two descriptions chillingly similar:

Mary Kelly-The skin and tissues of the abdomen from the costal arch to the pubes were removed in three large flaps. ......... the flap of skin, including the external organs of generation, and part of the right buttock. The neck was cut through the skin and other tissues right down to the vertebrae, the fifth and sixth being deeply notched


Elizabeth Jackson-The flaps of skin and subcutaneous tissue consisted of two long, irregular slips taken from the abdominal walls. The left piece included the umbilicus, the greater part of the mons veneris the left labium majus, and labium minusThe right piece included the rest of the mons veneris, the right labium majus and minus[external organs of generation], and part of the skin of the right buttock.
Head and neck taken off opposite the 6th cervical vertebra.

Thanks Debra. Dr Phillips' comparison of the Pinchin Street torso and the Kelly murder, made at the Pinchin Street Torso inquest, is interesting: "The mutilations in the Dorset Street case were most wanton, whereas in this case it strikes me they were made for the purpose of disposing of the body."

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra!
couple more follow ups, if you don't mind? : )

The red tape was found in the Gill case and what other?
Did the Gill boy have organs removed?

Yes, it definitely seems that Jackson and Kelly are the two most similar cases between the two series!

Hi Abby
In the Tottenham case, where Trow wrote that the victim had an 'exotic' red rose tattoo on her wrist that suggested she was a high class prostitute according to the newspaper report I posted, it was later found to be a mark made by the red tape used to bind some of her body parts and not a tattoo at all.Fragments of red tape were found inside John Gill's body.

I can't remember the exact nature of Gill's wounds or if organs were taken and I don't have a copy of the post mortem any more but his genitals were targeted for mutilation I seem to recall- hopefully correctly.

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra. Dr Phillips' comparison of the Pinchin Street torso and the Kelly murder, made at the Pinchin Street Torso inquest, is interesting: "The mutilations in the Dorset Street case were most wanton, whereas in this case it strikes me they were made for the purpose of disposing of the body."

I never understood that comparison myself, John. Philips is comparing severed limbs to ease disposal to mutilations.He can't be talking about the wound to Pincchin St victim's torso can he? That wound couldn't have aided in anything.

In the Mary Kelly and Elizabeth Jackson case there is no denying the similarity of the removal of flaps of skin from the abdomen that both included the external organs of generation and skin from the buttocks too. They read almost identical. Wounds like that wouldn't aid disposal either.

[John G]

I never understood that comparison myself, John. Philips is comparing severed limbs to ease disposal to mutilations.He can't be talking about the wound to Pincchin St victim's torso can he? That wound couldn't have aided in anything.

In the Mary Kelly and Elizabeth Jackson case there is no denying the similarity of the removal of flaps of skin from the abdomen that both included the external organs of generation and skin from the buttocks too. They read almost identical. Wounds like that wouldn't aid disposal either.

Hi Debra,

Of course, Liz Jackson and the Pinchin Street torso were the last of the known torso cases. They could therefore represent an evolution or elaboration of the killer's ritual. Schlesinger et al (2010) considered 37 offenders who engaged in ritualistic behaviour of which 45.9% evidenced evolution or elaboration of their rituals across victims. In fact, one offender began with postmortem genital mutilation and progressed to dismemberment.

Considering the dates, I wonder if any elaboration of signature could have been inspired by the Whitechapel murders, representing a pastiche of those crimes?

[martin wilson]

Hi Trevor

I post this in reference to your point about back street abortions. No prosecution followed in the Wood case and you can read what happened here.
It perhaps shows Wynne Baxter's theory was not entirely unprecedented.

Cardiff Times 10th February 1883.

ONE MORE "UNFORTUNATE"
SAD DEATH OF A GIRL.

At an inquest held at Birmingham on Tuesday, respecting the death of Clara Elizabeth Sweet, 17 years of age, some very painful disclosures were made. The girl left her parents last summer to stay with an aunt in Birmingham, but subsequently went to a low house where she died of peritonitis, caused by the use of an instrument to procure miscarriage.
It was stated that the house where she died was much frequented by medical students, and that one of the lads had "prescribed" for her.
In reply to the coroner as to whether the low house was not " a classroom for medical students", a witness replied "A great many come there".
The coroner pointed out that the evidence was not strong enough to bring a charge of wilful murder home to anyone. He consequentially did not think it would be fair to mention the name of the medical student.
The Jury found that death ensued from the use of an instrument, but by whom used there was no evidence to show.
Several medical students who were outside the court showed their approval of the verdict in an unseemly and vulgar demonstration.

All the best.

[Fisherman]

I can't remember the exact nature of Gill's wounds or if organs were taken and I don't have a copy of the post mortem any more but his genitals were targeted for mutilation I seem to recall- hopefully correctly.

This is from The Croydon Advertiser. All the details are not there, but the general picture is given.

"On Saturday morning his mangled body was discovered in an entry leading to a stable not more than fifty yards from his home. Both legs had been severed from the body at the thighs, the operation of dismemberment having evidently been performed by some person having more than an elementary knowledge of anatomy. The throat was not cut, nor was the face disfigured, but both ears were sliced off and a deep vertical cut ran from just below the chin to the lowest extremity of the abdomen. On the left breast were two deep and wide stabs. A portion of the intestines as well as the heart had been plucked out and placed around the neck, and other portions of the body had been cut away and removed. The surgical theory is that death resulted from the stabs in the region of the heart, and that the mutilations were effected after the body had become cold. The boy's trousers and shirt were placed in the bundle with the remains, and the braced were used to hold the parcel together."

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor

I post this in reference to your point about back street abortions. No prosecution followed in the Wood case and you can read what happened here.
It perhaps shows Wynne Baxter's theory was not entirely unprecedented.

Cardiff Times 10th February 1883.

ONE MORE "UNFORTUNATE"
SAD DEATH OF A GIRL.

At an inquest held at Birmingham on Tuesday, respecting the death of Clara Elizabeth Sweet, 17 years of age, some very painful disclosures were made. The girl left her parents last summer to stay with an aunt in Birmingham, but subsequently went to a low house where she died of peritonitis, caused by the use of an instrument to procure miscarriage.
It was stated that the house where she died was much frequented by medical students, and that one of the lads had "prescribed" for her.
In reply to the coroner as to whether the low house was not " a classroom for medical students", a witness replied "A great many come there".
The coroner pointed out that the evidence was not strong enough to bring a charge of wilful murder home to anyone. He consequentially did not think it would be fair to mention the name of the medical student.
The Jury found that death ensued from the use of an instrument, but by whom used there was no evidence to show.
Several medical students who were outside the court showed their approval of the verdict in an unseemly and vulgar demonstration.

All the best.

Martin

Thank you for that, and it has to be widely accepted that these back st medical procedures were very frequent. It also has to be accepted that very often many of them went wrong.

How often have we been watching televised operations under controlled situations when the surgeon will accidentally nick a main blood vessel or artery and has one hell of a job trying to suppress the bleeding. I am sure in 1888 if the same happened the patient may not survive such a blood loss if the medic was not professional enough to be able to stem the blood flow quickly.

If the patient dies that medic may attempt to remove or remove organs to perhaps sell on or give to student etc. As I have said before far more plausible explanations for these torsos being found other than murder.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Thanks Debra. Dr Phillips' comparison of the Pinchin Street torso and the Kelly murder, made at the Pinchin Street Torso inquest, is interesting: "The mutilations in the Dorset Street case were most wanton, whereas in this case it strikes me they were made for the purpose of disposing of the body."

John
You have to bear in mind that we now know that much of what the Victorian doctors said was nothing more than guesswork and not to be totally relied on.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Abby Normal]

This is from The Croydon Advertiser. All the details are not there, but the general picture is given.

"On Saturday morning his mangled body was discovered in an entry leading to a stable not more than fifty yards from his home. Both legs had been severed from the body at the thighs, the operation of dismemberment having evidently been performed by some person having more than an elementary knowledge of anatomy. The throat was not cut, nor was the face disfigured, but both ears were sliced off and a deep vertical cut ran from just below the chin to the lowest extremity of the abdomen. On the left breast were two deep and wide stabs. A portion of the intestines as well as the heart had been plucked out and placed around the neck, and other portions of the body had been cut away and removed. The surgical theory is that death resulted from the stabs in the region of the heart, and that the mutilations were effected after the body had become cold. The boy's trousers and shirt were placed in the bundle with the remains, and the braced were used to hold the parcel together."

Thanks fish
Sounds a lot like the ripper. Actually a bit like torso man also.
When and where did this take place?

[Fisherman]

Thanks fish
Sounds a lot like the ripper. Actually a bit like torso man also.
When and where did this take place?

Near Bradford, in the last days of December 1888.

[Debra A]

Martin

Thank you for that, and it has to be widely accepted that these back st medical procedures were very frequent. It also has to be accepted that very often many of them went wrong.

How often have we been watching televised operations under controlled situations when the surgeon will accidentally nick a main blood vessel or artery and has one hell of a job trying to suppress the bleeding. I am sure in 1888 if the same happened the patient may not survive such a blood loss if the medic was not professional enough to be able to stem the blood flow quickly.

If the patient dies that medic may attempt to remove or remove organs to perhaps sell on or give to student etc. As I have said before far more plausible explanations for these torsos being found other than murder.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,
The torso cases must be assessed as separate cases, I'm sure you'd agree. Therefore we can definitely rule out abortion in the case of the Pinchin and Rainham St torsos as post mortems showed neither were pregnant.

Also, Elizabeth was heavily pregnant but NO abortion was performed on her. Abortion was a procedure which involved the use of an instrument through the vagina to open the cervix and break the waters in the uterus. It was never an abdominal 'operation'. Women who underwent this back street type abortion often died, yes, but they mostly died from the effects of peritonitis and blood poisoning (a similar death to Emma Smith's) many days after the procedure, often back at home.

In Elizabeth's case Bond and Hebbert were able to show that no abortion had taken place due to the condition of the vagina, cervix and uterus, which were all unharmed and in normal condition. This is how they were able to say Elizabeth had not yet delivered the child either, there was none of the stretching, tearing, abrasions and bruising of the vagina, cervix etc that happen during childbirth. All were intact.

Of the 87-89 cases, only the Whitehall case had the uterus missing and so could have been a victim of a failed abortion.

You bring abortion up in every torso discussion but never tailor your arguments to specific cases. No one here is denying abortion practices killed women but some need to read up more on how those deaths occurred and what an abortion entailed. It doesn't fit for 3 of these four cases.

It's possible Elizabeth may have been poisoned by someone trying to bring on a miscarriage. The organs used to detect poisons were missing.

Also, the term 'illegal operation' refers solely to abortions. Students and doctors didn't go around illegally whipping out tonsils and stuff!

[John G]

Martin

Thank you for that, and it has to be widely accepted that these back st medical procedures were very frequent. It also has to be accepted that very often many of them went wrong.

How often have we been watching televised operations under controlled situations when the surgeon will accidentally nick a main blood vessel or artery and has one hell of a job trying to suppress the bleeding. I am sure in 1888 if the same happened the patient may not survive such a blood loss if the medic was not professional enough to be able to stem the blood flow quickly.

If the patient dies that medic may attempt to remove or remove organs to perhaps sell on or give to student etc. As I have said before far more plausible explanations for these torsos being found other than murder.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hello Trevor,

Considering the Whitehall Torso. The Torso was discovered in a vault, deep into the foundations of the New Scotland Yard building. There was virtually no light and the workmen stated that the vault would have been extremely difficult to locate. The leg, foot and arm were buried and it required a dog to find them. Moreover, they must have been there longer than the Torso because of the rate of decomposition, suggesting the perpetrator had visited the site at least twice. He may also have climbed a 9ft fence to gain access.

The question therefore is this: if simple body disposal was the motive, i.e following an illegal operation, why go to such extreme lengths, with all the attendant risks, to discard the remains?