The Whitehall Mystery

[John Wheat]

Hello John,

Yes, I think it's completely ludicrous, a work of fantasy. There's nothing in the medical findings to suggest she'd been tortured or shackled. Dr Kempster found four bruises on the thigh, which he believed were caused by a firm finger grip whilst she was still alive, but I don't see how those findings remotely imply torture or the application of shackles.

Hi John

Thanks for the reply. I'd assumed the article was bullshit as I've never read or heard anything regarding evidence of torture being present in relation to any of the Torso Murders.

Cheers John

[John G]

Hi all
Author Sarah Pinborough wrote a fictional novel 'Mayhem' based on the Thames Torso cases and I believe she includes graphic, fictional accounts of the victims' torure.

Thanks Debra. Perhaps she's branched out into Ripperology, but is starting to merge fact with fiction. Mind you, thinking about it that could mean that she's a member of this site!

[Debra A]

Hello John,

Yes, I think it's completely ludicrous, a work of fantasy. There's nothing in the medical findings to suggest she'd been tortured or shackled. Dr Kempster found four bruises on the thigh, which he believed were caused by a firm finger grip whilst she was still alive, but I don't see how those findings remotely imply torture or the application of shackles.

Hi all
Author Sarah Pinborough wrote a fictional novel 'Mayhem' based on the Thames Torso cases and I believe she includes graphic, fictional accounts of the victims' torure.

[John G]

Elizabeth Jacksons second arm was found on the 10:th of June, and the fist on that arm was very tightly clenched. Michael Gordon reasons that this implicates that Jackson was in very much pain when she died, but I think it may just as well be a sign of suffocation.
Otherwise, there is nothing to indicate any possible torture, as far as I understand, let alone any use of shackles.

There were a number of circular scars on the upper left arm, but Trow suggests they were indicative of vaccination. There was also an inch long scar, but that was an old injury: in fact, it was the means by which she was identified by her mother.

[Fisherman]

Hello John,

Yes, I think it's completely ludicrous, a work of fantasy. There's nothing in the medical findings to suggest she'd been tortured or shackled. Dr Kempster found four bruises on the thigh, which he believed were caused by a firm finger grip whilst she was still alive, but I don't see how those findings remotely imply torture or the application of shackles.

Elizabeth Jacksons second arm was found on the 10:th of June, and the fist on that arm was very tightly clenched. Michael Gordon reasons that this implicates that Jackson was in very much pain when she died, but I think it may just as well be a sign of suffocation.
Otherwise, there is nothing to indicate any possible torture, as far as I understand, let alone any use of shackles.

[John G]

I recently read an article online that claimed there was evidence Liz Jackson had been tortured by the Torso Killer and either shackled to something or put in stocks. Is this article bullshit?

Hello John,

Yes, I think it's completely ludicrous, a work of fantasy. There's nothing in the medical findings to suggest she'd been tortured or shackled. Dr Kempster found four bruises on the thigh, which he believed were caused by a firm finger grip whilst she was still alive, but I don't see how those findings remotely imply torture or the application of shackles.

[John Wheat]

I recently read an article online that claimed there was evidence Liz Jackson had been tortured by the Torso Killer and either shackled to something or put in stocks. Is this article bullshit?

[RockySullivan]

Monroe made the interesting point that the wound leading to the vagina may have been made to simulate the Whitechapel murders: such an act of mischievous would be consistent with the Torso killer's MO but not the Whitechapel murderer.

Where's the evidence that the Pinchin Street victim's uterus was removed? I think you'll find that was just a myth.

I'm not sure about pinchin, I think whitehall & jackson, but I see you were specifically talking about the pinchin torso mutilations my mistake. Interesting how the pinchin torso was dismembered below the knees right? Strange. September 8 might still hold the clue. I wonder if there was something that went on in the area around that time or if possibly whoever the killer lived with went to visit family at that time, like a birthday or something

[John G]

I would consider taking out the uterus genital mutilation, isn't it? The abdominal opening from pub to rib cage is the same as eddowes
. You are saying all the coincidences between the pinchin torso and ripper is because the torso killer wanted to give a nod to the ripper murders, but why not consider he was the ripper? It's much less complicated. Look at Kelly, the ripper varies his MO and he kills indoors

Monroe made the interesting point that the wound leading to the vagina may have been made to simulate the Whitechapel murders: such an act of mischievous would be consistent with the Torso killer's MO but not the Whitechapel murderer.

Where's the evidence that the Pinchin Street victim's uterus was removed? I think you'll find that was just a myth.

[RockySullivan]

I would consider taking out the uterus genital mutilation, isn't it? The abdominal opening from pub to rib cage is the same as eddowes
. You are saying all the coincidences between the pinchin torso and ripper is because the torso killer wanted to give a nod to the ripper murders, but why not consider he was the ripper? It's much less complicated. Look at Kelly, the ripper varies his MO and he kills indoors

[John G]

A parody...that's always possible but of course the much simpler explanation (Occam's razor like you said)...is not that the killer is making a parody but that they are connected

I would have thought that Occam's razor would lead us to conclude that the Pinchin Street Torso was a victim of the Torso killer, not JtR. JtR did not dismember his victims, made no attempt to disguise their identity, and didn't use dump sites. And, as Donald Swanson pointed out, even the mutilations suggested a very different motives I.e no genital mutilation.

[RockySullivan]

The point is you are coming up with a theory to explain the coincidences rather than accept the simpler explanation that they are the same killer. Now a killer who strikes twice on the same day one year apart that could be a big clue if we could discern why that day

[RockySullivan]

As I've argued before, the coincidences that you refer to can be explained if we regard the Pinchin Street Torso as a parody of the Whitechapel murders. She was also dismembered, unlike any of the C5, and killed elsewhere from where the body was found, unlike any of the C5. Dr Biggs, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, argues that that we do not know what a killer's intention may have been; Eddowes killer, for example, may have intended to remove different organs.

A parody...that's always possible but of course the much simpler explanation (Occam's razor like you said)...is not that the killer is making a parody but that they are connected

[John G]

It seems clear to me that the ripper intended to remove the uterus...that's why he took it with him. Unless you believe he randomly sliced in the dark and luckily out popped a kidney or a uterus? Clearly his intention was to do so. And same for the torso killer. There are similarities with the circumstances of the stride murder and the pinchin torso. Proximity, Schwartz railway arch, lipski. And the anniversary of chapman murder. There are too many similarities between the torso killer and the ripper that stretch beyond the explanation of simple coincidences

As I've argued before, the coincidences that you refer to can be explained if we regard the Pinchin Street Torso as a parody of the Whitechapel murders. She was also dismembered, unlike any of the C5, and killed elsewhere from where the body was found, unlike any of the C5. Dr Biggs, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, argues that that we do not know what a killer's intention may have been; Eddowes killer, for example, may have intended to remove different organs.

[RockySullivan]

Is there anything about September 8th that might indicate (if the torso/ripper are the same) why some one would commit a murder n the same day two years in a row? There may be something significant about that day...like the killer has off, some type of event that takes place, the killers wife or family is away