The Whitehall Mystery

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,

I believe Dr Clarke, after examining the Pinchin Torso, concluded that bruising to the backs of the hands and forearm were caused by a tight grip.

Dr Clarke-On the right arm there were eight distinct bruises and seven on the left, all of them caused before death and of recent date. The back of both forearms and hands were much bruised.
Dr Clarke-The bruises on the right arm were such as would be caused by the arms having been tightly grasped.

I don't think the back of the hands being bruised indicate being from a tight grasp. They seem more defensive.

There were also bruises on the back which were caused in life.

Dr. Clarke-On the level of the top of the hip bone was a bruise 2 1/2ins. in diameter. It was such a bruise as would be caused by a fall or a kick.

Also of note:

Dr. Clarke-On the outer side of the left forearm, about 3in. above the wrist, was a cut about 2in. in length, and half an inch lower down was another cut. These were caused after death.

Sounds to me like she was tied up before she died. Then the person cut the binding off the wrist after death. Maybe the cord or binding would be incriminating. Such as red tape.

[Trevor Marriott]

I agree John however I wouldn't rule out the Killer using the heads for sex acts.

Cheers John

Then that puts a whole new meaning to the term "giving head"

[John Wheat]

Hi John,

I think the main reason the heads were retained was to prevent identification. However, they may also have been kept as trophies.

I agree John however I wouldn't rule out the Killer using the heads for sex acts.

Cheers John

[John G]

I wonder what the Torso Killer did with the heads. Did he keep them just to make sure he was never identified? Did he perform sex acts with them? Does anyone have any thoughts?

Hi John,

I think the main reason the heads were retained was to prevent identification. However, they may also have been kept as trophies.

[John G]

As far as torture goes, I tend to agree with Fisherman. However the assistant surgeon, Mr Clarke said, On the right arm there were eight distinct bruises and seven on the left, all of them caused before death and of recent date. The back of both forearms and hands were much bruised. The eight and seven bruises were supposedly from a tight grasp on the arms. The others, on the hands and forearms, sound to me like someone was beating the hell outta her while she covered up her face or chest. Maybe even getting kicked while on the ground?

Hi Jerry,

I believe Dr Clarke, after examining the Pinchin Torso, concluded that bruising to the backs of the hands and forearm were caused by a tight grip. There were also bruises on the back which were caused in life.

[RockySullivan]

As far as torture goes, I tend to agree with Fisherman. However the assistant surgeon, Mr Clarke said, On the right arm there were eight distinct bruises and seven on the left, all of them caused before death and of recent date. The back of both forearms and hands were much bruised. The eight and seven bruises were supposedly from a tight grasp on the arms. The others, on the hands and forearms, sound to me like someone was beating the hell outta her while she covered up her face or chest. Maybe even getting kicked while on the ground?

And fairclough's black eyes...Hm suspicious

[John Wheat]

I wonder what the Torso Killer did with the heads. Did he keep them just to make sure he was never identified? Did he perform sex acts with them? Does anyone have any thoughts?

[John G]

Hi John, Debs knows way more about the torso murders than Mei Trow, so if she says with confidence that something he published is incorrect, then it is. Incidentally, Trow published a book naming the slow, elderly pauper Robert Mann as Jack the Ripper, so that might tip you off on his motives. Having said that, I enjoyed his torso book, but mainly because it's one of only two published on the torso murders thus far.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Yes, I agree, Debra's understanding of the Torso cases is exceptional; I've suggested that she write a definitive book on the subject! I've read both of Trow's books, I.e on Mann and the Torso murders, and I also found the Torso murders book to be an enjoyable read. However, there does appear to be the odd flaw, such as the rose tattoo. I consider his conclusions as to the social status of the victims to be questionable; and Trevor Marriott's expert, Dr Biggs, has undermined the opinions of the Victorian doctors- which Trow, of course, relies upon- regarding the degree of skill demonstrated by the perpetrator and the type of tools used for dismemberment.

[jerryd]

As far as torture goes, I tend to agree with Fisherman. However the assistant surgeon, Mr Clarke said, On the right arm there were eight distinct bruises and seven on the left, all of them caused before death and of recent date. The back of both forearms and hands were much bruised. The eight and seven bruises were supposedly from a tight grasp on the arms. The others, on the hands and forearms, sound to me like someone was beating the hell outta her while she covered up her face or chest. Maybe even getting kicked while on the ground?

[jerryd]

I've often wondered why leave the arms on the Pinchin Torso? The other torsos had both the arms and legs removed.

[Fisherman]

While I'm not advocating the spread of misinformation, is there anything to rule out the possibility of torture?

Yes, there is - a lack of the sort of damage that is normally connected with torture; burnmarks, open wounds etcetera. Of course, there may have been such damage on the missing heads and other lacking pieces, but the indications are that there was no torture.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks Debra. Further highlights the importance of being cautious about secondary sources. However, Mei Trow, a respected writer of true crime, entitled one of his chapters "The Girl with the Rose Tattoo", which your research has also undermined, i.e as regards the bit about the tattoo. However, I still regard the Tottenham Torso as a plausible addition to the series, but perhaps without the rose tattoo!

Hi John, Debs knows way more about the torso murders than Mei Trow, so if she says with confidence that something he published is incorrect, then it is. Incidentally, Trow published a book naming the slow, elderly pauper Robert Mann as Jack the Ripper, so that might tip you off on his motives. Having said that, I enjoyed his torso book, but mainly because it's one of only two published on the torso murders thus far.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Harry D]

While I'm not advocating the spread of misinformation, is there anything to rule out the possibility of torture?

[John G]

I think some people are just unable to separate fact from fiction, John. Sarah Pinborough's book was marketed as a fictional treatment of a historic case but there are those, like the person writing on the 'Bermuda Traingle' website about the torso cases for example, who will repeat something like that as though it were a true account.

Thanks Debra. Further highlights the importance of being cautious about secondary sources. However, Mei Trow, a respected writer of true crime, entitled one of his chapters "The Girl with the Rose Tattoo", which your research has also undermined, i.e as regards the bit about the tattoo. However, I still regard the Tottenham Torso as a plausible addition to the series, but perhaps without the rose tattoo!

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra. Perhaps she's branched out into Ripperology, but is starting to merge fact with fiction. Mind you, thinking about it that could mean that she's a member of this site!

I think some people are just unable to separate fact from fiction, John. Sarah Pinborough's book was marketed as a fictional treatment of a historic case but there are those, like the person writing on the 'Bermuda Traingle' website about the torso cases for example, who will repeat something like that as though it were a true account.