The Whitehall Mystery

[Rosella]

I still think the killer may have a person who delivered a load of material to the Whitelall site from his cart or boat just once and so wasn't associated with it day by day, but came back and reconnoitred once or even a couple of times after dark or on a Sunday. Having discovered the vault he came back when the work site was deserted and delivered his parcel from the Thames-side.

[Debra A]

IF the whitehall vault was a temporary hiding spot why bury the limb?

The limb was thought to have buried accidentally beneath the pile of earth that was dug out from another area when drainage was being created. The earth had been dug 5 weeks earlier.

[John G]

It's hard to understand if the whitehall torso was meant to be found in the vault or if it was temporary hiding spot for one of the workers. There is some misunderstanding about how long the torso was there. I've read the doctor claim it was there for six weeks due to the dark stain on the wall and all the maggots inside. All the workers claim it wasnt there days before. I'm going to take a closer look at the workers testimonies. Wasn't the man who worked for messr grover a carpenter? (i posted testimony above). IF the whitehall vault was a temporary hiding spot why bury the limb?

Yes, I dont think the vault would have been a temporary hiding spot. I mean, what purpose would that have served? Moreover, even for one of the workman transporting a torso into such a darkened labyrinth would have involved a considerable risk. And, of course, unlike a stranger a workman would have run the additional risk of being recognized.

[RockySullivan]

My understanding is that were a large number of workman on the site. Is therefore possible that he could have taken a temporary job as a workman, in order to gain access to the site and to obtain details about the layout?

It's hard to understand if the whitehall torso was meant to be found in the vault or if it was temporary hiding spot for one of the workers. There is some misunderstanding about how long the torso was there. I've read the doctor claim it was there for six weeks due to the dark stain on the wall and all the maggots inside. All the workers claim it wasnt there days before. I'm going to take a closer look at the workers testimonies. Wasn't the man who worked for messr grover a carpenter? (i posted testimony above). IF the whitehall vault was a temporary hiding spot why bury the limb?

[John G]

My understanding is that were a large number of workman on the site. Is therefore possible that he could have taken a temporary job as a workman, in order to gain access to the site and to obtain details about the layout?

[Fisherman]

Sash cords were installed into windows by carpenters to draw the window up. There were plenty of carpenters in the Whitehall vault, as we know.

So you are suggesting that a carpenter working in the building could have been the killer? Well, that would certainly take care of the question how he could find his way around the place.

The problem I would have with the suggestion is that it would be crapping on your own doorstep, and it would seem this killer - if it was just the one killer - did not do so otherwise.

Nevertheless, it´s a worthwhile suggestion on your behalf!

[jerryd]

Sash cords were installed into windows by carpenters to draw the window up. There were plenty of carpenters in the Whitehall vault, as we know.

[GUT]

Carmen would reasonably be well versed in the art of tying things .

Agree having spent my younger years with carters, albeit after the horse and cart years. They still pride themselves in their knot tying skills

[GUT]

Butchers also use a lot of string and string up joints in quite a complicated way.

Sash cord and blind cord were used in a couple of cases to wrap the remains, plus red and now black tape. Butchers probably had their own supply of string and wouldn't need to use sash cord as a compromise.

I did once read that fine sash cord was used for fishing.

need to really fine sash cord to catch anything.

[Debra A]

I find it a strange suggestion that sash cord would have been used as a fishing line. Of course, most lines CAN be fished with, but in the long run, sash cord would not make for a good fishing line, methinks.

You're probably right. It was more likely something I read about sash cord and fishing hooks used by burglars but it's the way my mind works lately!

[Fisherman]

Butchers also use a lot of string and string up joints in quite a complicated way.

...

I did once read that fine sash cord was used for fishing.

Carmen would reasonably be well versed in the art of tying things

I find it a strange suggestion that sash cord would have been used as a fishing line. Of course, most lines CAN be fished with, but in the long run, sash cord would not make for a good fishing line, methinks.

[RockySullivan]

Frederick Wildborn was the first witness examined, and he said: I live at 17, Mansell-road, Clapham Junction, and am a carpenter employed by Messrs. Grover and Sons at the New Central Police Office at Westminster. On Tuesday last I was at the buildings, and my work took me to all parts of the place during the day. At six o’clock on the morning of the previous day I had occasion to go to the vaults to find my tools, my labourer having taken them there on the Saturday. I then noticed what I took to be an old coat thrown on one side. It was lying in the corner of a recess. It was very dark there, even in the middle of the day. I could not find my tools - my labourer having, in fact, already removed them. In the evening at 5.30 I went once more to the vaults, and I then noticed the parcel again. There was no smell, not in the least. I drew my mate’s attention to the parcel, and struck a wax vesta to look at it.
The Coroner: Was that the first time you had noticed it particularly? - Yes; but we did not know what it was, and came away.
[Coroner] Did you report the circumstance? - Not then. I saw the parcel again the next morning. About one o’clock Mr. Brown, the assistant foreman, came down to where I was at work, and I then informed him of what I had seen. We both went and looked at the parcel, and we thought it seemed curious.
[Coroner] Was it opened in your presence? - No.
[Coroner] Were you in the vault on the Saturday? - I was not there for a week before.
[Coroner] When you were last there did you perceive anything unusual? - No.
[Coroner] Did your labourer say anything to you about it? - No. I heard of the discovery of a body about three-quarters of an hour after Mr. Brown had seen the parcel.
[Coroner] Did the parcel remain in the same position from the Monday until you drew Mr. Brown’s attention to it? - Yes; when I lit the match was the first time I had noticed anything particular. There was some débris in the place.
[Coroner] Has this vault been used for putting your tools in for any length of time? - For some weeks until the last three weeks. I always placed my tools there from Saturday to Monday, because I considered them safer there than in the locker. I have not noticed any similar parcel before.
[Coroner] No one carrying such a parcel? - No.
[Coroner] Is there any difficulty in getting to the vault? - Yes, to a stranger.
By the Jury: There is a hoarding all round the buildings. Each time I had to strike a match in order to see the parcel. I got to the vault not by means of a plank, but of a compo floor. I was not at the works at all from the Saturday to the Monday. When I saw the parcel first I thought it was a workman’s old coat.


Was Grover member of the board of works I wonder?

[Debra A]

Butchers also use a lot of string and string up joints in quite a complicated way.

Sash cord and blind cord were used in a couple of cases to wrap the remains, plus red and now black tape. Butchers probably had their own supply of string and wouldn't need to use sash cord as a compromise.

I did once read that fine sash cord was used for fishing.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky
It was definitely a bear's leg. I mentioned it much earlier in the thread. It had been discarded by a man who bought it to eat but didn't like the tatse. It had been boiled and skinned, which made it look more like human flesh.

Re animal blood- I wouldn't be surprised if Victorian butchers used old newspapers to wrap meat up.

That's the first thing that comes to mind is a butcher with the animal blood and also seems like what bonds assistant was inferring as you said but it sounds like the pieces of the chronicle on the body were in small pieces...which doesnt sound like the way a butcher would use newspaper. Rereading the whitehall inquest string seems to be a significant part of the torso killers disposal method.

George Budgen deposed: I live in Salisbury-buildings, Walworth, and am a bricklayer’s labourer, in the employ of Messrs. Grover. I was in this vault last Tuesday afternoon, just before three o’clock. I went there because my foreman, Mr. Cheney, told me there was a parcel there, and I was to examine it. I looked at it, and found that the top was bare, and the rest wrapped in some old cloth, but could make nothing of it. I thought it was some old bacon at first. I took hold of the strings around it, and dragged it into the light and cut the strings, three or four in number. On opening the old wrappers I saw that the parcel contained part of a human body.
[Coroner]How long before had you been in the vault? - Not for a long time. I had no occasion to go there.
[Coroner]Had you ever seen the parcel before? - No. I took a lamp down; without it I should not have been able to see anything. It was as dark as the darkest night. The police afterwards took charge of the remains.
[Coroner]What was said to you when you were sent to the vault? - The foreman only asked me to go and see what the parcel was.

Bond: The arms had been removed at the shoulder joints by several incisions, the cuts having apparently been made obliquely from above downwards, and then around the arm. Over the body were clearly defined marks, where string had been tied. It appeared to have been wrapped up in a very skilful manner.

The wrapping and strings might indicate profession of the killer?

Inspctr Marshall:

The string with which the parcel was tied was a miscellaneous lot. One piece is of sash-cord, and the rest is of different sizes, and there is also a piece of black tape.

[Debra A]

Could the animal blood have a connection to that?

how did someone mistake bear parts for human at first? sounds silly but are we sure it was a bear?

Hi Rocky
It was definitely a bear's leg. I mentioned it much earlier in the thread. It had been discarded by a man who bought it to eat but didn't like the tatse. It had been boiled and skinned, which made it look more like human flesh.

Re animal blood- I wouldn't be surprised if Victorian butchers used old newspapers to wrap meat up.