The Whitehall Mystery

[RockySullivan]

This may be little more than a coincidence. For example, another interesting incident happened on 24 August: a right foot and left leg were found near to Guildford railway station, possibly tossed from a train. It was subsequently discovered that they were the remains of a bear!

Could the animal blood have a connection to that?

how did someone mistake bear parts for human at first? sounds silly but are we sure it was a bear?

[Debra A]

Hello Debra,

Yes, but of course Dr Biggs considered this opinion to be "quite bizarre." (Marriott, 2015).

Hi John
Yes, he did.
But in some ways what the LVP doctors said about doctors maybe being less practiced in the opening of joints makes sense if it was common practice to amputate legs mid-thigh or below the knee, rather than at the hip or knee joints.
Someone once posted civil war medical diagrams showing leg amputation here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8571

[John G]

Well one clipping was from the aug 24 echo. It would be helpful to find a copy of this edition, but aug 23 was the day of the verdict in the Tabram inquest. I would assume the echo on august 24 covered the TaBram verdict since it was the following day and i think the killer was showing the police this was his work.

This may be little more than a coincidence. For example, another interesting incident happened on 24 August: a right foot and left leg were found near to Guildford railway station, possibly tossed from a train. It was subsequently discovered that they were the remains of a bear!

[John G]

I think they were trying to suggest that a butcher or hunter would be more used to opening joints to remove the limbs of animals and a surgeon wouldn't necessarily perform an amputation by removing a limb at the joint and so might be less practiced in the technique.

Hello Debra,

Yes, but of course Dr Biggs considered this opinion to be "quite bizarre." (Marriott, 2015).

[Debra A]

I don't know. He says not an anatomist but someone who knows joints? What does that indicate? Why the pieces of newspaper staged on the torso with animal blood?

I think they were trying to suggest that a butcher or hunter would be more used to opening joints to remove the limbs of animals and a surgeon wouldn't necessarily perform an amputation by removing a limb at the joint and so might be less practiced in the technique.

[Trevor Marriott]

I don't know. He says not an anatomist but someone who knows joints? What does that indicate? Why the pieces of newspaper staged on the torso with animal blood?

The Doctors comments about the lack of anatomy skill shown should be treated with caution. The doctor is trained in how to cut off an arm or a leg for the purposed of amputation as part of a surgical operation.

But would anyone else wanting to do the same for some unlawful purpose bother to be so precise and conform with medical guidelines? I would suggest the answer is no, remove it the easiest and quickest way possible at the joint.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

Well one clipping was from the aug 24 echo. It would be helpful to find a copy of this edition, but aug 23 was the day of the verdict in the Tabram inquest. I would assume the echo on august 24 covered the TaBram verdict since it was the following day and i think the killer was showing the police this was his work.

The Echo snippet was the one found on the ground nearby the torso, right? And the Chronicle parts were the ones actually found on the torso itself, if I am correct.

Did both the Echo material and the Chronicle ditto have blood on them? And the inquest quote you posted, from what paper is it? Have you found confirmation in other sources on the issue?
The Tabram inquest is covered in the Echo of the 23:rd, but of course there may have been further information on the murder in the next days issue of the paper.

The combination of the date of the Echo snippet and the blood on the paper pieces makes for tantalizing grounds for speculating about a wish on behalf of the killer to blame the papers for something, of course. Proving such a thing is a lot harder to do, however...

[RockySullivan]

That is a very curious detail indeed. I can´t help but to think that it may involve some sort of message or commentary involving the press - or to be more precise, it´s coverage. But that has to remain a guess only. What do you make of it yourself?

Well one clipping was from the aug 24 echo. It would be helpful to find a copy of this edition, but aug 23 was the day of the verdict in the Tabram inquest. I would assume the echo on august 24 covered the TaBram verdict since it was the following day and i think the killer was showing the police this was his work.

[Fisherman]

I don't know. He says not an anatomist but someone who knows joints? What does that indicate? Why the pieces of newspaper staged on the torso with animal blood?

That is a very curious detail indeed. I can´t help but to think that it may involve some sort of message or commentary involving the press - or to be more precise, it´s coverage. But that has to remain a guess only. What do you make of it yourself?

[RockySullivan]

"The arm was surrounded at the upper part with a piece of string, which made an impression on the skin, and when it was loosened there was a great deal of blood in the arm."

Does this not suggest a tourniquet ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I don't know. He says not an anatomist but someone who knows joints? What does that indicate? Why the pieces of newspaper staged on the torso with animal blood?

[Fisherman]

But lets not lose sight of the fact that we still do not know who put the parts there or for what purpose, or how the victim died.

So perhaps your good self and others who it would seem favor a serial killer should perhaps take a step back and not be so confident of that belief.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Maybe you could teach us the fine art of taking a step back, Trevor, given the - ehhrrrm - vast experience you have in this field?

[Trevor Marriott]

We have the opinion of people who go actually worked there! There view clearly implied that access would have been extremely difficult and that the vault itself was a darkened labyrinth. In fact, as I've noted before, even the site foreman was of the opinion that no one could find the vault unless they knew the site personally or had it minutely described to them.

But lets not lose sight of the fact that we still do not know who put the parts there or for what purpose, or how the victim died.

So perhaps your good self and others who it would seem favor a serial killer should perhaps take a step back and not be so confident of that belief.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John G]

The only plausible explanations which would apply to either a killer or someone else disposing of the parts at different locations as a result of another type of death would be to

1. Hide the evidence of some unlawful act
2. Hide the identity of the victim.
3. Prevent the body parts being found which might point to either or both of the above.

Like I have said previously we have no sketches or detailed descriptions or photos of the location of this so called vault. It may not have been as hidden away as has been suggested and may not have been the type of vault we have come to believe.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

We have the opinion of people who go actually worked there! There view clearly implied that access would have been extremely difficult and that the vault itself was a darkened labyrinth. In fact, as I've noted before, even the site foreman was of the opinion that no one could find the vault unless they knew the site personally or had it minutely described to them.

[Trevor Marriott]

inquest:


Mr. Charles Alfred Hibbert, assistant to Mr. Bond, deposed: I examined the arm on Sept. 16. It was a right arm, and had been separated from the shoulder joint. It measured 31in in length and was 13in in circumference at the point of separation, the wrist being 6½in round, and the hand 7½in long. The arm was surrounded at the upper part with a piece of string, which made an impression on the skin, and when it was loosened there was a great deal of blood in the arm. The hand was long, and the nails small and well shaped. It was the hand of a female. There were no scars or bruises. The arm had apparently been separated after death.
[Coroner]Did the arm seem to have been separated easily? - The operation was performed by a person who knew what he was doing - not by an anatomist, but by a person who knew the joints.
[Coroner]Had the cuts been done by a very sharp knife? - They were perfectly clean. I found that the skin cuts of the arm corresponded with those of the trunk, and that the bones corresponded likewise. The same skill was manifested in both instances. The work was not the work of the dissecting-room - that was obvious. A piece of paper was shown to me as having been picked up near the remains, and it was stained with the blood of an animal.
[Coroner]Was there the mark of any ring on the finger? - No.

Inspector Marshall, of the Criminal Investigation Department, said: About five o’clock on Oct. 2 I went to the new police buildings on the Thames Embankment, and in the basement saw the trunk referred to by previous witnesses. The corner from which it had been taken was pointed out to me, and I saw that the wall was a great deal stained. Examining the ground I found the piece of paper alluded to by the last witness, as well as a piece of string, apparently sash-cord. Dr. Hibbert handed me two pieces of material which had come from the remains. I at once made a thorough search of the vaults, but nothing more was discovered. On the following morning, with other officers, I made a further search of all the vaults, but nothing more was found nor anything suspicious observed. The piece of paper spoken to forms part of an Echo of Aug. 24. Dr. Hibbert handed me a number of small pieces of paper found on the body. They are pieces of the Chronicle, but I cannot yet establish the date. It is not of this year’s issue. With respect to the dress it is of broché satin cloth, of Bradford manufacture, but a pattern probably three years old.
[Coroner]Is it a common dress? - It is made of common material. There is one flounce six inches wide at the bottom. The material could probably be bought at 6½d per yard. I have examined the hoarding round the works.
[Coroner]Is it possible to get over it? - There is a place in Cannon-row where a person could easily get over, but there is no indication of anybody having done so. The latch which has been referred to is not likely to have been noticed except by a person acquainted with buildings. The string with which the parcel was tied was a miscellaneous lot. One piece is of sash-cord, and the rest is of different sizes, and there is also a piece of black tape.
[Coroner]Did you form any opinion as to how long the parcel had been where it was found? - From the stain on the wall I certainly thought several days, but the witness Edge told me he was sure it was not there on the previous Saturday.
[Coroner]Edge being recalled repeated his assertion that the remains were not in the vault on the Saturday, as they were discovered in the very place where he looked for the hammer.
The Coroner: Do you think it possible that the parcel was there without your seeing it? - I am sure it was not there.

-

The pieces of paper on top of the body were in small pieces. What significance did these papers have and why did the killer place them on top of the torso?

"The arm was surrounded at the upper part with a piece of string, which made an impression on the skin, and when it was loosened there was a great deal of blood in the arm."

Does this not suggest a tourniquet ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor do you have any plausible explanation for why the torso "dumper" would deposit the torso with buried leg inside the whitehall vault? Or how for that matter? Why would the "dumper" leave a part inside the shelly estate yard if the goal was only to dispose of accidental/medical/abortion/stolen corpse death?

Not that we have any clue why the torso RIPPER chose to keep the torso deep inside the whitehall vault...

The only plausible explanations which would apply to either a killer or someone else disposing of the parts at different locations as a result of another type of death would be to

1. Hide the evidence of some unlawful act
2. Hide the identity of the victim.
3. Prevent the body parts being found which might point to either or both of the above.

Like I have said previously we have no sketches or detailed descriptions or photos of the location of this so called vault. It may not have been as hidden away as has been suggested and may not have been the type of vault we have come to believe.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk