Different Killers

[lynn cates]

open legs

Hello John. Thanks.

Well, nothing to object in paragraph one.

In two, yes, a bit contrived. Thought experiment: if you are following someone, say, a date to her apartment for a nightcap, and you went for a smoke or gum, would you pause behind her and fetch it out or do a 180? I ask this quite honestly as I cannot quite see the 180. (Of course, IF it were to cough, spit, blow the nose, then yes.)

I quite like your third paragraph. Indeed, I think it is more or less the answer. Of course, it all but entirely obviates "JTR."

Here's a tit bit for the "JTR" believer. Why not have Liz go into the yard searching for a bloke with 4d. having failed she heads out. "JTR," who has been waiting near the privy, sees her and follows her. then he strikes as she stops for a cachou? (I believe that Caroline Morris first offered this.) And, although it has many bugs, I don't think they are insoluble. Put another way, it is not self-contradictory as the frontal assault view is.

Regarding posing (and including ONLY the C5): here's another thought experiment. Four pregnant women go to a physician to delivery a baby.

Q: since ALL have open legs for delivery, does that count as posing? Perhaps it is merely for ease of access?

But let's keep thinking. This is great.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

mild

Hello Batman. Ah! You've seen it? Splendid.

Now, since you have opted for a mild post, permit me to reciprocate.

1. My opinion is that, indeed, there would be no arterial spray simply because her neck would be close to the ground and the wound so positioned as to hit the ground underneath.

2. If Liz were on her back when cut, surely the spray would be like a geyser?

But you seem to understand what I was about in the video--mostly ALL derived from Dr. Blackwell. Well done.

Obviously, however, it cannot account for her shoulders. But, as pointed out, they may have come earlier in the evening.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Shoulder bruises like those are no small things. Her upper body received heaps of trauma. Even putting your arm on her shoulder would have been like sunburn to her.

As you have noted since you have one hand on her scarf and one on a knife, you can't make shoulder contact.

Then there is the issue of height in the dynamics of the attack. Your height, hers. How tall was her attacker? So on.

Then you have a bloodless neckerchief with a knife slice in it.

The idea of getting them on the ground is to control the spray so that it comes out the left side, nearest the ground, away from them while also cutting into the windpipe. The last is the part of the neck near you with reduced pressure and flow.

[lynn cates]

cut

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Given the reenactment, the scarf HAD to have a cut. If fact, I felt the cardboard knife go over its edge when I did it.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

Hello John. Thanks.

Well, nothing to object in paragraph one.

In two, yes, a bit contrived. Thought experiment: if you are following someone, say, a date to her apartment for a nightcap, and you went for a smoke or gum, would you pause behind her and fetch it out or do a 180? I ask this quite honestly as I cannot quite see the 180. (Of course, IF it were to cough, spit, blow the nose, then yes.)

I quite like your third paragraph. Indeed, I think it is more or less the answer. Of course, it all but entirely obviates "JTR."

Here's a tit bit for the "JTR" believer. Why not have Liz go into the yard searching for a bloke with 4d. having failed she heads out. "JTR," who has been waiting near the privy, sees her and follows her. then he strikes as she stops for a cachou? (I believe that Caroline Morris first offered this.) And, although it has many bugs, I don't think they are insoluble. Put another way, it is not self-contradictory as the frontal assault view is.

Regarding posing (and including ONLY the C5): here's another thought experiment. Four pregnant women go to a physician to delivery a baby.

Q: since ALL have open legs for delivery, does that count as posing? Perhaps it is merely for ease of access?

But let's keep thinking. This is great.

Cheers.
LC

I'm a fan of the gynecological identification of the uterus theory, rather than the surgical method, but even that's considered posing. Any positioning of the body not required for the act of killing is posing. So even if he's kicking their legs apart to kneel between them, because that didn't end their life it's posing.

[lynn cates]

significance

Hello Errata. Thanks.

Very well. Can't disagree when put that way.

On the other hand, not sure that it is any longer significant?

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Batman. Ah! You've seen it? Splendid.

Now, since you have opted for a mild post, permit me to reciprocate.

1. My opinion is that, indeed, there would be no arterial spray simply because her neck would be close to the ground and the wound so positioned as to hit the ground underneath.

2. If Liz were on her back when cut, surely the spray would be like a geyser?

But you seem to understand what I was about in the video--mostly ALL derived from Dr. Blackwell. Well done.

Obviously, however, it cannot account for her shoulders. But, as pointed out, they may have come earlier in the evening.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn

Severing the windpipe would not necessarily result in arterial spray.By doing this death would be almost instantaneous, any cuts thereafter would result in minimal blood loss.

It is such that researchers are to ready to accept without question the testimony of many of the witnesses in these murders in particular the doctors. It has already been fully explained by a modern day forensic expert that much of their opinions was nothing more than guesswork back then, and the people back then readily accepted what they said as being correct.

126 years later we can look at it in a different perspective

Here is another example of conflict involving a doctor with regards to the Eddowes murder

Pc Watkins
"She was lying in a pool of blood"

Dr Brown
"There were no stains of blood on the bricks or pavement around"

The reality is that none of any of the witness testimony throughout all of the murders was full tested simply because that is not the role of the coroner or the purpose of an inquest.

We can look at it today and look at what questions perhaps should have been asked to clear up ambiguities but sadly we will never know the answers to those questions, so witness testimony has to be treated with extreme caution for that reason

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[lynn cates]

carotid

Hello Trevor. Thanks for that.

But if the carotid were partially severed . . . ?

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Trevor. Thanks for that.

But if the carotid were partially severed . . . ?

Cheers.
LC

If the carotid artery were partially severed in the case of Stride as the doctors state then one might expect some arterial spray, however my expert has stated that sometimes victims tend to bleed inwards hence the lack of arterial spray and in the case of Stride the carotid was only partially severed

The doctors state she bled to death. So in my opinion the time of her death was much earlier than has been suggested.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John G]

Hello Lynn,

I've been giving further thought to matters and have come up with a few ideas. I would be very interested to know what you think.

Firstly, I'm still struggling with the idea of Stride being a domestic killing. If the crime was not pre-planned then, as I've noted before, I would have expected a serous argument to have ensued prior to the assault. However, if this was the case why wasn't the commotion heard by a club member, as Morris Eagle indicated it would have been, or by Mrs Diemschutz, who was busy in the kitchen close to the side door?

And, of course, there's the problem of the cachous. Would Stride have been relaxed enough to turn her back on her killer, and to eat the cachous, if she'd just been involved in a quarrel with the man?

Could it have been a pre-planned, organized murder by someone she knew? The difficulty here is that Dutfield's Yard seems far from an ideal place to stage a murder. Moreover, why would the killer choose perhaps the worse possible night to set up a murder at that location, i.e. on account of the talk and the fact that the club would inevitably be very busy? Surely there must have been other nights when the club would not be so busy?

And if this was a domestic killing, or at least the killer was known to Stride, doesn't that increase the likelihood that her assailant would have been local and perhaps even a club member, thus increasing the risk that he might be subsequently identified by a witness? This is even more problematical if you accepts Schwartz's evidence: he claims to have seen her outside the gates of the club so anyone approaching her, like BS man, risked being seen, i.e. by Mortimer, Schwartz, Pipeman. The fact that she was standing outside the gates of the club, if you accept this account, also undermines the idea that she'd arranged to meet someone by the side door.

I've also been giving some thought to the question of whether BS man could be involved. Now I think an important issue may be where Stride got the cachous from- weren't the police unable to establish where she may have purchased them?

Okay, consider this scenario. BS man, who may also have been JtR, sees Stride standing outside the club and assumes that she's soliciting- perhaps she was hoping to get some business from exiting club members. He therefore approaches her and tries to persuade her to come with him to a pre-determined location; this may have been a similar tactic used by Polly and Annie's killer.

However, Stride politely refuses. It could be that there is something about the man she distrusts, or more likely she doesn't want to go with him any great distance as she considers it more expedient to simply wait until the club members start to leave. Perhaps the club had been good for business earlier in the evening: she may even have gone with a club member who attended the talk earlier, but this man didn't subsequently come forward as he was afraid he might be considered a suspect and, in any event, he had no useful information (It's surely likely that Polly and Annie also had other clients earlier in the day but I don't believe anyone came forward to the police, presumably for the same reason.)

Anyway, Stride's polite refusal makes the man angry; maybe he's overconfident and was expecting Stride to be lured away as easy as the other victims. Maybe he doesn't take rejection well! Frustrated, he attempts to pull Stride into the street, as witnessed by Schwartz. However, as soon as BS man has seen off Schwartz and Pipeman he quickly regains his composure; realizing that it is now unlikely that he will be able to convince Stride to go with him he tries a different tactic.

Improvising, he decides that if he can get Stride into Dutfield's Yard, the darkness of the location may prove to be a suitable, albeit risky, alternative murder site. He therefore attempts to make amends: he offers Stride the cachous, supposedly as an olive branch (Stride readily accepts; after all, she doesn't want to make the man angry again and, on account of her profession, she's probably used to the occasional rough treatment by clients.)

Next, he offers to buy her drink in the club by way of making further amends, no doubt telling Liz that he's a member. Stride once again accepts: she's attracted by the singing and, anyway, it's a public place so surely he won't get aggressive again in front of so many witnesses. Anyway, once in the club she can ditch BS man and look for a more suitable client. She also starts to eat the cachous as she has now started to relax again.

Of course, he's no intention of going into the club and, as soon as he gets Stride into the yard, perhaps even putting an arm around her shoulder to gently direct her to a dark part of the yard, he strikes launching a sudden blitz attack.

I would also refer to Trevor Marriott's earlier post (757). He argues that she may have died earlier than suggested. If this is the case, might not an earlier time of death coincide more with Scwartz's timing of 12:45? Of course, that would rule out the killer being disturbed by Louis but, of course, he may have been disturbed by something else- close presence of Mrs D?- and simply decided he'd acted in haste; Dutfield's Yard was not such a good option after all!

I would stress this is first draft so may need some amending!

Regarding, the hypothesis proposed by Carloline Morris. If I've understood correctly this seems to depict JtR as some kind of human spider! In other words, he's skulking around the privy in the hope that some unfortunate will enter his"web." Now, in terms of problems where do I begin? Firstly, it doesn't remotely seem like JtR's MO, or any sane persons MO for that matter, although, who knows? Maybe he was skulking around the outdoor privy in Hanbury Street, when Annie just happened to fall conveniently into the trap (I know, it's totally absurd, but I thought it might be time to introduce some levity into the proceedings!) Secondly, if he was skulking around the privy/Yard for any length of time surely someone would have noticed him. Thirdly, the chances of a suitable victim. i.e. street prostitute, accidentally falling into the trap would presumably have been very remote. However, on a positive note, maybe Stride's killer was like Jacob, i.e. completely deranged, regarding himself as some sort of human spider! But no, Whitechapel couldn't possibly be swarming with so many unbalanced people!

[Batman]

Here is another example of conflict involving a doctor with regards to the Eddowes murder

Pc Watkins
"She was lying in a pool of blood"

Dr Brown
"There were no stains of blood on the bricks or pavement around"

1.Civilian - I saw no pool of blood.
2.Law enforcement - I saw no blood on the ground.
3.Pathologist - There was blood on the ground.

#3 is greater than #1+#2 combined. This is because the expert witness when it comes to blood is the Pathologist, not the law enforcement official and not the witness.

Here is another scenario.

1. Civilian - I saw blood.
2. Law enforcement - I saw blood.
3. Pathologist - It wasn't blood. It was oil.

Same here. #3 is greater than #1+#2.

Greater in what capacity?

Anyone can discover a fact. A fact can fall out the sky. Be dug up from the ground. We can fall out of bed onto facts... but discovering or the omission of something is not the process of explaining it. Facts require explanations and in this case the facts over blood can only be explained by the expert. The medical person.

[John G]

Hello Errata. Thanks.

Very well. Can't disagree when put that way.

On the other hand, not sure that it is any longer significant?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

As I noted in my earlier post, if there is evidence that Stride's body was posed might this provide a link with the other C5 victims and Tabram? If Stride's killer did spend time moving and posing the body does this add weight to the theory that he was interrupted, i.e. because of the additional time this would have required?

[lynn cates]

sequence

Hello John. Thanks.

One problem with your scenario is that it would indicate a conspiracy--Club members claimed NOT to have seen Liz.

But let's waive that for now. My main problem is that your description pretty much fits a Liz and assailant who are going INTO the yard. If a sequence can be derived for going OUT, I would feel MUCH more confident.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

wide definition

Hello (again) John. Thanks.

Well, if we use the other suggested definition of posing, proposed by Errata, then ALL were posed, but in a different way.

Obviously, this would not narrow things down one whit.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

Hello (again) John. Thanks.

Well, if we use the other suggested definition of posing, proposed by Errata, then ALL were posed, but in a different way.

Obviously, this would not narrow things down one whit.

Cheers.
LC

Which is why I brought it up. It's never not significant, it's just usually not as significant as we would like it to be. They were all posed. They were not necessarily ritually posed, but they were posed. It means there is a departure from the strictly necessary. Which we probably would have figured out just from the post mortem mutilations, but it's an idea a little more useful in other murders.